conflicting information

[meltown]

only do pu/pd if shh/pat doesn't work anymore.  it is a last resort kind of thing.

[whereissusan]

 stacy - only one day of pupd worked for you?

[whereissusan]

i want to hear more of your story as it is encouraging.  only one day and then never again?  it was an accepted thing to just put your lo down and then sleep time was accepted after the one day of doing battle?  also, this is after doing pat/shh for how long when you found it didn't work?  how old when you finally decided to do pu/pd? 

[whereissusan]

ok, i know it's not a solve all but like you said it may help what is going on.  i see you wrote the pupd faq -- did you do it the way described for your lo or did you have some variation.  also anything beside major crying i should be prepared for?  did you stop after an alloted time or was it go for broke during nap time?  how long did you do this for and did things get harder before they got easier as the day progressed?

once settlling occurs, mantra cry or no cry, you just walk out of the room or are you in the room observing but out of sight or are you in sight?  i am guessing out of sight because it's all about indie sleep but your lo can smell you so does that really matter? 

right now i leave my lo in the cot and when she cries i stroke her head and lay a hand on her tummy.   when she starts to quiet i try and remove the hand on the tummy and then i just stroke.  when she quiets i stop and watch sitting next to her with a hand up to shield her eyes from looking at mine.  then i walk out once eyes start to close or staring occurs.  if she starts  up again i go in an stroke etc, etc.  in your opinion should i keep doing this and save pupd when this no longer works (i guess no longer works means crying continues no matter what?) or will she only learn indie sleep with pu/pd at this stage of the game?

sorry about so many questions by like you said i need to be superclear and keep at whatever i try and do until things work...no backing out...

[meltown]

I would keep doing what you are doing if it is working.  pu/pd is an absolute last resort.  like then shh/pat doesn't work then you combine the 2 and always tryt o calm int he crib and if it doesn't work then pick them up until they calm ( this involved just holding them while they cry and talking to them) then putting them back down and if the cry calm them in the crib. if it doesn't work then you pick them up and start all over.  BUT if Shh/Pat is working ( or your form of it) then keep at it and she will learn independent sleep too.  be consistant with that.

[whereissusan]

thanks...i just went an hour twenty minute round with her which i hated doing but i don't want to back down.  she ate just before so i know she wasn't hungry.  do you think that it's too long of a period to cry and protest?  no tears or all out hysteria just crying.  i know she was tired because she had a terrible nap earlier in the car seat and kept waking up so i figure she was just overtired.  i am concerned to let her cry that long because she might start to hate her crib and the process of napping? i believe in the bw it said to take a break after 40 minutes.... what do  you think

[meltown]

stacy may have a better answer for you, but I would think that is a long time.  is the sh/pat calming her or is she just crying through it?

[whereissusan]

yep...i meant to add, does that long of time mean pat/shhh isn't working?  she cried right through but as i said she was so overtired ( i think).  seh would calm here and there and then start up again.  the last bit she reved up and went for a half hour straight of harder crying than earlier in the sequence.

[whereissusan]

just so you know i have been dong this for a month (four straight weeks for naps and bedtime...bedtime is better, naps still a challenge)...the only thing that changed in the past week or two is using the swing a little more for a break.  not sure if that consittutes not working or if using the swing put me back to square one.  i never got to the point of her going to sleep indepently.  i am trying to experiment with that more.  today i got one indie nap (morning) in but the other two i was there till she closed her eyes.  i figure start with the easier morning nap.

i am trying to shorten her A time and doing a longer nap routine instead of plopping her down which i did more or less before.  i turn on music, swaddle her, read a book called "ten minutes till bedtime" and then i put her in the cot.  depending where we are on the schedule feeding happens first then the rest follows.  i have cut down from 2 hours awake time to starting with 1:40 then shortening that by ten minutes for consecutive naps if they are 45 minute deals.  i start the windown fifteen minute prior to give time for windown and not to have her overtired wired once i put her down.

she as gotten use to me stroking her...even at night she cries (not hard just more fussy) until i come in and stroke her.  should i be ignoring fussy and wait until full on crying?  perhaps that is where i am blowing it.  sometimes it escalates once i go in and i question that she isn't fully crying but more fussing.

ok,  i am full of a million questions but i have no support (single mom on little sleep) and really want to do this right and get her and me more needed sleep. 

[whereissusan]

yes, it makes sense and i see the error of my ways.  i am now afraid of what i have just set myself up for...a lot of crying!  i have gone in when she fusses, i stroke her when she is fussing and crying, yikes....i now have to ween her off that and let her fuss.  i suppose i have been afraid of the fuss turning to cry so i go in.  there is a fine line of fussing and crying as fussing sometimes turns into crying.  i thought i was supose to be stopping the crying.

i am guessing that my plan of action now is to let her fuss on her own until she cries then go in and soothe? and only soothe if she is truelly crying?  oh my, if i only knew what i know now which i am sure many mothers have said before.

you mention on your post to reduce or remove the stroking. i will try and reduce it. i don't think cold turkey is going to work cause i got nothing else to soothe her with -- i will try and stop earlier which amounts when she stops crying. is that a fair assesment?  i can use it to soothe her to stop crying but not to sleep - right?  also, i didn't really understand the bit about "not sure this messing around with the hand stroking is worth it"  what did you mean?

[whereissusan]

had to make one more post as i was laying in bed wide awake and thinking this all through...i thought the pat/shhh was suppose to be used to soothe baby from crying to not crying.  isn't it pat/shhh until calm and then see what happens.  if crying, pat/shhh again.  so what is the difference if i stroke to calm(using the same as pat/shhh but stroking instead)?  or am i reading this all wrong. it seems that i am actually using myself stroking as a prop (as you said with the feet rubbing)  because i stroke till calm...i am suppose to stop before and let her cry adn calm herself?  i guess i am a little confused from sleep deprivation...

if i stop when she calms is the good or do i have to stop the strokng all together?  how then do i get her to calm/do i soothe her to stop her from crying? 

[whereissusan]

ok, so i will do it less and try to ween.  if i can stop before she shuts her eyes then i am on the right track?  i suppose i dont' see when i can just put her down with nothing...even with pat/shhh wouldn't a baby need a pat/shhh to send her in the right direction?  it all seems like a prop to me....sounds like there is a fine line.  with pat/shh you do it until they fall asleep when they are under three months according to the boards.  after you stop short of sleep and then gradually ween.  does one get to a point that they don't do either pat/shhh?  and if this is possible then stroking is the same?

[whereissusan]

ok...i just put her to sleep without using stroking (ok, just a tiny bit in the very start) and relied on hand pressure on her belly (she sleeps on her back).  i tried to leave when she calmed and she just got all worked up again so i went back in and put my had on her stomache.  she closed her eyes and went to sleep.  so my question is how to i ween from this?  it all seems like i am a prop wether i stroke, pat, shhh or apply pressure....how do i not make this a prop and make it work so i can just lay her down and let her go to sleep indie style?  anything i do to her is something she can't do for herself (pat/shh/ stroke,pressure, etc etc) so i just dont' get how to make it a tool not a crutch

[M and N's Mom]

I just noticed your post and had to say how cute your avatar is    Also, you are in great hands getting advice from Stacy!  You sound exactly like us many months ago with my DS and Stacy (and Zoey) were a GREAT help!  My DS is such an independent sleeper now that there is nothing I could do to help him to sleep...he does it on his own and me even being in the room would be a total distraction to him!   Hang in there, it may be a long road full of crying but you can do it!