new to site and desparate for help

[katiekangaroo]

Not sure where to start. am new to this site so sorry if am doing it wrong!

we have a 9week old boy (third child) and it's all gone horribly wrong. we can't get him to sleep on his own - a result of AP we know but just dont know how to get back on track.  He will only go to sleep after extensive rocking and often with a dummy or during the day he will sometimes go down in his pushchair with lots of rocking. we have no real routine although we try to follow EASY but always seem to go off track or get distracted with the other two children.  We keep trying ssh ssh pat but he doesn't seem to like being swaddled any more and the whole thing seems to wake him up and wind him up more. I can't bear the control crying technique but don't know how else to teach him to go to sleep on his own. 

our routine today:

7/7.30 wake sometimes to feed, sometimes not depending on how the night went

8.15ish sleep in pram usually for 45 mins but sometimes til 10 if we've been up all night!

10 feed

11.30 ish sleep 45 mins max if lucky

1pm feed

2/30 sleep in pushchair with the occasional rocking to keep him asleep

4pm feed

4.45 fell asleep in swing chair

5.15 wake

6pm 'cluster feed'

7.15 attempt to put to bed - it's now 8.45 and he's asleep on hubby and wakes whenever we attempt to put him down anywhere.

I really hope someone can help

Lisa

[aps]

Lisa, first check out this website.  I have given you the page that addresses the sleep needs of the age of your son: http://www.familysleep.com/age_and_sleep_patterns__2-3.htm

I have been recommending this book in almost every thread because I think it's excellent: http://www.amazon.com/Healthy-Sleep-Habits-Happy-Child/dp/0449004023

It sounds like you might need to try to get him to bed earlier.  Have you tried a night ritual?  We bathe our little boy, feed him, and then put him to bed.  I think being in the bath relaxes him a lot.  He loves the bath, and he knows that he's going down for the night after the bath. 

You list a lot of sleep where your son is "moving."  According to Weissbluth (the author of the book above), sleep with movement is not, for the most part, restorative sleep.  He uses an example of sleeping on a plane or in a car for adults. 

As for crying, Tracy would say that you keep picking up your child and hold him until the crying stops and then put him back down and to keep up this procedure until he doesn't cry anymore.  I have not tried that method because the daycare center won't do it, and I want there to be consistency.  I have let him cry it out, and as painful as it was in the beginning, he cries only sometimes when going to sleep, but it's never for long. 

[EllenS]

We dont recommend Crying it out here.  Sorry, APS, but that is expressly against Tracy's philosophy.  The Babywhisperer approach is "NEVER EVER leave a crying baby alone".  Also, the Pick-up/PutDown technique is not recommended until age 4 months and up, it's too stimulating for little babies to handle.

He is very small still, don't beat yourself up about not being on EASY perfectly yet.  We didn't even know about/start EASY until our LO was about 13 weeks, and she is now a very good independent sleeper (when she's not teething or something). 

Those awake times between naps seem REALLLY long for 9 weeks.  3 hours at midday?  My lo only started doing 3 hours recently, and she is 7 months.  Sounds like your lo is very overtired.  Average awake times for a 9 week old would be 1 hour 15-1hour 30, max.  And that INCLUDES feeding and wind-down, so you'd be putting him down in his crib maybe 55 minutes - 1 hour 10 minutes from the time of waking.

Then the old standbys are:

Watch the baby's cues!  Some of them are obvious, like eye-rubbing and yawning, but at that age, those behaviors meant my lo was ALREADY overtired.  When she was starting to enter the "magic zone", she would slow down her playing and get quieter, and give a heavy sigh.  Maybe your lo has an "early warning" system like this that is more subtle. In your situation, I'd watch the clock, too and try to cut those awake times right back.

A nap routine that you do consistently (ours is quite simple, really, just diaper change and saying nite-nite to all the lights and pulling down the shades)

Make sure the room is as dark as possible.

White noise, a fan, humidifier, or sound machine.

I agree about the movement sleeping being poor-quality, but I totally understand trying to do whatever works. 

I'd say for tonight, if you're still reading this, just do what you need to do to get the baby and yourself some zzzz's.  He's not going to go on EASY all at once, it's a process and changes will happen gradually.  Tomorrow or the next day, when you are able to start, try modifying the shh/pat technique - some LO's find the patting too stimulating - some prefer rubbing, or just the pressure of your hand.

Best of luck!  Hope this is helpful!  There are lots of threads about tips for ssh/pat and making it work for your baby's temperament and preferences, look in the EASY forum and the Sleep forums.  There is also a forum about making EASY work with other children in the house - I htink it's called "and then there were two".  You're not alone, and you'll do fine.  There is no instant fix, but it really does help over time, soon your lo will be putting himself to sleep - it seems like a long time when you're working on it, but when you look back it will seem so fast!

Hugs to you and your family!

[donna_issabella]

Lisa,

HUGS, it is so difficult dealing with an OT baby!!

Ellen has said everything so eloquently! I cannot emphasise strongly enough about CIO not being the answer. At this age your baby needs to know you are there for him, he isn't crying out of spite or because nothing is wrong. He is crying because he has a need, and a need only you as a mommy can help address. No-one ever said EASY isn't hard,  but it pays off.

As Ellen said, you will do well with going step by step, and not trying to change everything at the same time. The good news is your LO is still a youngster and has the brain span of a nagt, so it will easier to help him acquire better sleeping habits.

I am sure one of the sleep experts will be by to help you along. Good luck!!

xx
DI

Sorry for the short response, have to shower and run, hubby looking at me as I am already late, but I could not read, and not post!

[Niki&Isaac]

I just wanted to add that I also have a book called "The science of parenting" - It doesn't describe techniques, but does tell you why babies are the way they are (we are all just a bunch of chemical/hormonal responses really)
This book goes into great detail about how being left to cry releases hormones in a baby's brain that cause him/her the most awful feelings, similar to that of physical pain. Being left to cry may stop a baby crying but not because the problem goes away, just because no-one is coming to the rescue. Very scary for a LO.
EASY can be hard, but it does work (eventually), I only hope you find time to learn a bit about it. With 2 other kids it's not going to be easy. Massive hugs. Let us know how you get on.

[Layla]

Hi Lisa & welcome to the boards

I just wanted to say that I agree with everything EllenS said.... he is awfully young still (he's still considered a newborn, really) & EASY did not look like true EASY until mine was past 4 months with #2. For the 1st 4 months she fell asleep which ever way I could get her to fall asleep. I had a toddler to deal with at the same time so there was LOTS of AP going on with us as well. Its alot harder to sleep train when you have 2 other children running around so don't feel bad about using some AP. Isabella was also 9 weeks when I started sleep training & it took me about 2 weeks of shh/pat. Before that she was carried around on the Babybjorn all day long .

Him falling asleep in the pram, push chair, on you/dh is all normal & if you think about it he has been rocked to sleep for the last 9 months. You need to start gradually teaching him self-soothing skills & this is where shh/pat comes in. Do you have the BWSAYP book at all?

I also have that book (Healthy Sleep Habits Happy Child) & I think its an excellent book from an educational point of view. He talks about how sleep is formed & what to expect at different stages (naps, night sleep, etc...) but can I just say that even Weissbluth or if you go further & think of Ferber (the king of cc) didn't recommend cc/cio at such an early age. Either way, you said in your original post that you will not be able to bear c/c so thats hopefully not the path you're going to take .

Is there anyone that can help out with the other 2 children (not sure how old they are if they go to school?). When I decided to sleep train Jasmine, something that really helped me was to buy some new toys (outdoor toys cause she loooves being outside in the backyard) & only take them out when I was ready to nap the baby. Something new & interesting didn't make her come & look for me or come running in & out of the room (& just at the time when the baby looked like she would close her eyes & fall asleep ).

I also placed a time limit on shh/pat. So if Jasmine wasn't responding too well to it in the 1st 30mins or so, I used to pick her up & give myself (& her) a little break, give her some more A time & then try again later. I know you might feel like you are standing over a cot all day long & if things are really tough I believe its ok to help them out here & there. Again, he's still quiet young so don't put so much pressure on yourself to have him sleep trained ASAP. Things will be out of sorts for a little while but as long as the feeds are spaced out, its ok that he is NOT taking 3 long naps a day or that he is NOT falling asleep with shh/pat every single time. At the start you might even think that this will never work & shh/pat gets him more hyped up than relaxed... this is where you might have to experiment. Some babies find shushing really annoying & some babies find the patting annoying. You could try rubbing his back rather than tapping or you could try humming rather than shushing... & in time what will happen is that he will try to find something that calms him down on his own. He might start sucking on his blanket or he might even find his thumb (also not a bad idea to put his hand near his mouth so he can sort of munch on it & that will help him relax), he might rub his ear or play with his hair.

Also agree on white noise - we STILL have a fan in Jasmine's room. Its especially good when the todder is running a muck & screaming about... great to block the noises out & helps them settle faster as well.

Timing is really important, so as Ellen said... in lo's that young a tired sign most likely means that he is already overtired & its so much harder to settle an overtired baby. So I would watch him really close as well & try to start your windown routine about 15-20mins BEFORE the end of his A time (so say 1hr 15mins) so that he is already in the cot by the end of A time.

Sorry I babbled on a bit. Post back with whatever q's you have & we'll all help you help your lo how to sleep on his own

Layla

[mumtomollie]

Lisa,

I just wanted to reply and give you some hope!
I was in exactly the same position as you a couple of weeks ago - if you have time, read my post 'Am I confusing my little girl by being inconsistent'. I had fantastic advice from Layla (Isabella and Jasmine's Mum sho was reaqlly supportive and gave me great advice).
I was using the swing chair/pushchair/car/rocking in my arms, basically any way I could to get my little girl (now 18 wks) to sleep and she would only ever nap for 30 mins max at a time.
I started ssh/pat (although she hated pat  ) and within a week or so she was able to suck her fingers and soothe herself to sleep, sometimes with me in the room shhing in her ear, sometimes on her own with me out of the room but watching intently through the crack in the doorway!!! 

This is what I did....

When she showed tired signs (rubbed eyes, tugged ears) I took her up to her room, shut the blinds, put on her CD of classical music, swaddled her and then picked her up and walked her round the room shhing in her room and swaying. When she started looking drowsy after a few mins (or if she started fussing) I put her in the cot, carried on sshhing, put one arm near her head and the other one her body to stop her kicking her legs. When I started she did not like sucking her fingers/thumb so I put my little finger in her mouth to suck for the first few times while she got used to going to sleep in her cot. At first I stayed with her til she fell asleep, then gradually I was able to leave her to it and although she may fuss for a few mins, she is able to get herself to sleep!  We still have a few naps where I have to help her though, and that is normal. The main thing to do is remain consistent.

She put up a lot of resistance which is completly normal - you have to remember they are not crying out of pain or because they do not love you, it is because it is a change and they need to get used to it.
At first it took anything up to 30 mins but as Layla said, sometimes if it took more I would take her back down stairs for quiet play then try again in 15 mins to give us both a break.
With sshh/pat you try and soothe the baby in the cot, but sometimes if she was getting really upset I would pick her up and calm her then put her back down and try again.

When you start you will be apprehensive, but it is amazing how quick babies pick this up and are able to go to sleep this way. It is good to try and do all naps this way, but sometimes you might just feel like you need a break so go for a walk and let your baby fall asleep in the pushchair to preserve both your sanities!
Before I started I read posts where people were successful and thought 'yeah right that will never happen to me' but it really does work if you are consistent. Now I just do one long nap per day in the cot and the other 2 shorter naps she has while we are out and about in the puschair. She goes down awake at night now too, although when she has feeds in the night and I breast feed her she goes down asleep which I think is ok as long as she gets herself to sleep in the day and at nighttime.

It is so worth it - short term hard work for long term gain.
I feel like I have my confidence back as a Mum, we are in a much better routine and I can now plan things without worrying about how I am going to get her to sleep all the time!

I am here to give you all the support you need, I am still not quite there yet as she sometimes resists her sleep, but we are on the right track and both a lot happier  .

Take care and keep strong,
Cass

[katiekangaroo]

thanks for all your replies which I only managed to read today.  Poor little boy must be so tired if he's only meant to be awake for 1.5 hours max at a time. no wonder we've got problems!  As soon as I read that I took him up for a nap and he went to sleep within 15 mins (a breakthrough for us).  It hasn't gone quite so well the rest of the day and my hubby is now out with him in the car.

Can I check, with sshh/pat am i supposed to let him cry. At the moment if I put him down in the cot even slightly awake he fidgets then starts to cry until he's in a real state. I've tried soothing him in the cot sshhing and gently holding his legs and arms but he seems to get worse. I've tried just putting my hand on his chest but that doesn't work either. we both get so worked up I give up and rock him to sleep but needless to say he doesn't sleep well after such an episode.  I don't seem to be able to read his sleep signs at all and with the other two kids demanding my attention and distracting me I miss any signs there might be. 

Also there is no way I can dissapear every hour or so for so long and leave my 2 & 4 year olds alone together.

Is there anywhere on the site for other mums in my position with two other young children to add to the problems?

3rd time round I should know more each time but feel like I know less!! am feeling like a very rubbish mum!

[Layla]

Yes, he will cry with shh/pat & often you will notice a peak in crying before he will start mantra crying & settle down.

This is a link to the "& then there were 2" forum - there is a sticky top of the page... ideas on how to sleep train with a toddler. https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=20.0

What about getting a game that the 2yo & 4yo can do together or setting them up with an activity like finger painting or pretend cooking or playdoh???

Layla