is nap effecting night sleep in my 2.5 year old??

[catonss]

Hi!  Some of you may remember my posts throughout the summer about my 2.5 year old (actually she's 33 months now).  We've been trying to figure out her sleep for quite a while now.  We've dealt with separation anxiety...bad dreams...both of which led to several night wakings and early wakings.  After she was doing better with the anxiety, she would still wake 1-2 times a night, and early at 6 am.  She was falling asleep around 7:15 or so - so total, she was probably getting around 10.5 hrs, and a nap of 1 hr and 20 mins.  Didn't seem like enough - but maybe it was?  not sure now.  I assumed all summer that part of her issue was being overtired - and that's why she was waking at night.  We did wake to sleep to help her wake more around 7 - and that worked.  So then she was waking around 7 and then 1 other time somewhere in the night.  Much better.  So for several weeks she was getting around 11-11.5 hrs at night.  And then her naps shortened to 1 hour, or often 50 mins.  I have felt like this was too short of a nap, so i've been rushing in and getting her to lay back down, and she will, VERY easily (hasn't always done this) often for another 45 mins (so 1.5 hrs total).  Sometimes when i do this i have to wake her up.  So i've been assuming that this indicates she really does need a longer nap, just can't do it on her own right now.  More often than not, she'll do this - wake after 50-6- mins.  SO.....this last week she started NOT waking at night anymore, and waking at 7:00.  Yoo hoo!  Then after a couple days of that...she started taking FOREVER to fall asleep at night.  We'd leave the room around 7:15, hoping she'd be asleep by 7:30 or so...and it's been talking and singing until 8:30-8:45.  Then waking early at 6:30 sometimes, i think b/c she's overtired now (she seems like it - grumpy, etc). 

Are you following all this??  I have read on this board that taking a long time to fall asleep could mean the nap is too long or too late in the day.  I've been trying to get her nap around 5.5 hrs after wake up.  That has been key i think to some of her issues.  So w/ a 7 am wake up, i hope to have her asleep by 12:30.  If left on her own, she'll wake after an hour.  But like i said, i've been getting her to go back to sleep until 2.  So then bedtime by 7:30, which is 5.5 hrs after that.  Maybe not long enough in the afternoon?   

I know sleep needs change when closer to age 3...and i'm fine w/ putting her to bed later if that is what she needs...and fine with a short nap if that's what's best.  What would you suggest?  Just letting her wake up from nap when she wants to?  I'm thinking i'll try that and see if it gives her a longer night.  cause i'm thinking the next transition to happen obviously is no nap and a longer night anyway...  Is that typical?  Naps shorten to an hour or less for a while? 

thoughts?? thanks a bunch!!

[Layla]

Well with us a nap can be anywhere from 45mins to 1.25hrs long. If the nap is longer than 1.25hrs then I either get a later bedtime or an earlier wake up the next day.

Nights do become longer once the nap is dropped & on the day she doesn't nap (which is about 2 out of 7) then she will easily do 12hrs at night.

So.... I would say let her body nap what it needs to & nights will probably increase (as they have in the past).... Bella is good on 10.5hrs at night but if any less than 10hrs then I do see the effects the next day & if it were 10hrs or less over a couple of days I am SURE I would get an ot toddler. You just need to find that balance... if shes good on 11hrs at night then nap length will probably have to give way..... but in our case I know that her sleep needs have already reduced & she's definitely heading towards the no-nap transition (scared to even think about it).

What do you think?
Layla

[catonss]

I don't know....now tonight she fell asleep around 8, and woke around 10:30 and called out again at 11, so she's been up at least 30 mins.  I just long for something consistent, you know?  So i'm guessing she's overtired from the last couple nights of being awake for so long.  Today she napped about 1 hr 10 mins, and i didn't work on her to go back to sleep.  I think that helped her to be able to fall asleep tonight w/out much trouble.  so i think you're right about leaving the naps alone for now. 

[catonss]

OK, she just called out again to me.  So she's been awake almost an hour.  Overtired, you think?  So how can we avoid this?  Or now, remedy this?  She seems to be in this overtired thing more often than not.  I think it started from a night and nap of too much sleep...then she was awake for a long time b/f falling asleep that next night, and bam - overtired.  When this happens, what should I be doing right away to help it as fast as i can?  Or should i just give up trying and ease up??

[Layla]

Yes, it could be OT as the last couple of nights she had shorter nights (from what I read in your post the last issue was taking long time to fall asleep at night & waking earlier for the day).

With us when we get the ot stage, I try for a nap slightly earlier & do bedtime slightly earlier to let her catch up for a couple of days & then go back to normal schedule. Bella's A time is much longer than your lo's. She can do 6.5hrs so I try for a nap at 6hrs instead & still do 7pm bedtime (but she falls asleep sooner because the nap would have ended sooner).

Easing up is hard to do... I am a control freak when it comes to keeping mine from getting OT but ever since Bella sprung the whole "dropping the nap" thing, I've eased up & now a 45min nap is godsent as its just about enough to take the edge off & keep her happy in the afternoon . Sometimes I do read too much into things & if she has a tantrum because her blocks haven't stacked up the way she wanted them to, I think "Oh no, its GOT to be because she's missed the nap 3 days ago & now its accumulated" .... but it could just as well be her temperament & her not being happy about the blocks not stacking up. I hope I am making sense. Of course if Bella was to walk around all day long tripping over things, rubbing her eyes, yawning, cracking it over any little old thing or waking up at night, I would know its because she is overtired!

When she calls at night, how do you respond? You were doing the GW from memory.... have you made it to the door yet?

[catonss]

Well, she may be asleep now, but she's been up from 4:45-6 am - just awake.  I can hear her moving in the monitor, and she called to me 2 times (after the initial one).  So lots of lost sleep tonight. 

I wonder if this has something to do with Dad being gone last week.  She did fine when he was gone, but now that he's back, she's not so great.  This has happened before.  So maybe she still is dealing with some SA.

When she calls out the first time, we go to her, most of the time don't say anything, but if we do it's "i'm sorry you woke up, would you like me to rub your back?"  and she'll lay down, and we'll rub her back for a minute or 2 and leave and she's fine.  Huge improvement over before, where we could sometimes hardly even get her to lay down...she'd throw a big fit.  She still way prefers me to come to her at night than Dad.  And i would just as soon do it every time to avoid a tantrum, but my DH insists that he helps and that she gets over this.  Not so sure that's best right now.....i'd rather have a good night.  Anyway, then if she's up for a while, having trouble falling back asleep, she'll usually call again.  And she knows now that we only help her one time when she wakes.  But I still go to the door when she calls and say "I already helped you, it's your turn to lay back down and go to sleep.  you can do it - i love you."  Of course she used to throw a fit at this too, but she's good with it now - this is so routine we've been doing it for months.  I feel good about it.  I don't think she could handle us not coming when she calls.  And again, we were down to her waking and calling for us just one time for quite a while there, and going right back to sleep - livable.

So.....i guess we'll see how long she sleeps this morning, and try to put her down earlier.  Should I just let her nap however long she will, or if it's short should i get her to go back to sleep (cause i'm sure she would gladly if she wakes early).  Is nap a good time to let her catch up the lost hours, or will it just perpetuate the problem? 

And the tough thing about all this is i don't even really know what her ideal bedtime is right now.  So getting back to normal?  not sure....  We've been putting her down around 7:20, falls asleep prob by 7:30, wake at 7 - again, with one wake up, so some loss of sleep there.  when she started sleeping through, we were putting her down a little later.  maybe that was a mistake.  I wish i knew what was ideal for her, would give me a base to start from.  but then again, it would probably change soon anyway!!

Thanks for the help.....  It's 6:15...i hope she went back to sleep.  haven't heard anything since 6. 

[Layla]

Let her nap but no more than 1.5hrs long cause then you might have a short night again & again ot state. I think its ok to let them nap longer when they've lost sleep the night before but not on a regular basis. If Bella was to continue waking up at night & be up for hours & then make up for it during the day, I would shorten her nap to allow for unfragmented night sleep. Its hard to say really.... maybe help her get back to sleep but for max 1.5hrs.

Maybe putting her down later did add to the ot state... try to add up the amount of hours she has in a 24hr period to see what her "av" needs are & then you can look at splitting it into day & night sleep

I am also wondering... maybe she is still somewhat dependant on you to help her get back to sleep... but I know you don't want to consider leaving her to settle herself in case its going to lead to a tantrum....

If the night wakings are coinciding with the arrival & departure of her dad then maybe she's finding it hard to adjust to the changes

[catonss]

Wow - you are really helping me think through this.  THANKS!

Boy was she ready for her nap today - at just over 5 hours.  been asleep for an hour, we'll see what happens. 

What time do you put your DD down for the night? 

Yes....maybe her waking up at night does have to do with me going in to help her.  For some reason, i've stopped the GW at that (as i described).  Maybe I could try not going to her, just standing at the door the first time she calls.  Of course we would really have to prep her for this beforehand.  Last time we made a big move (sitting outside door), we had a "party" and said we were so excited cause she was old enough for this now.  Seemed to work.  And then we rewarded her for a while when she didn't fuss at night.  So maybe we could try that.  And I know less words the best....so maybe we try and just go to the door and say "i love you, time to lay back down" and then eventually move to just showing her the "i love you" sign only (which we also do)?  And then what?  Hope she quits waking b/c it's no fun anymore?  Or would we say "you're old enough to have us not come anymore?"  I fear that would bring us back to the problems.  I could see this first step (going to the door only) maybe being hard for her and causing tantrums for a few times, but i'm starting to think it wouldn't take long and she'd be over it.  that's what happened last time anyway.  I know things are best when they can do things on their own.....maybe that is the root of all this trouble.  Cause b/f all the anxiety and gradual withdrawal stuff that we've had to do, she hardly ever woke at night.  and life was good. 

Yes....she SO loves her dad...so it's been confusing why she struggles having his help at night.  We try and do everything exactly the same.  But i am discovering that she is a sensitive child....and i think you're right.  transitions are hard.  We have to talk for a long time about things coming up, and even then, it can be hard. 

Hmmm......still thinking......

Sarah

[Layla]

Sarah... when Bella wakes at night (which does happen from time to time), I go to her, tuck her in, say "its still night time, go to sleep" & leave. If she calls out for me again, I open the door slightly (stand at the door) & say my phrase "its night time, go to sleep". If was to call for me again I would probably NOT open the door & say my night time phrase.

Its only happened a few times that she's not settled the 1st time I go to her & often she will settle with the 2nd call (which is where I stand at the door)

So I would suggest something similar... 

We also have to talk about changes in advance.... that helps her alot with adjusting

With us bedtime is:
If nap is 1.25hrs long - 7pm & she falls asleep by 7:30ish (10.5hrs at night)
If nap is 45-1hr long  - 7pm & she falls asleep almost straight away (11hrs at night)
If no nap                 - 6pm & she falls asleep immediately (12hrs at night)

 

[me and bean]

hi sarah, i wanted to add a little of my experience lately with my son.

he's 2.5yrs.  i moved him to a 'big boy bed' about 3 or 4 months ago.  and since then he has been waking and getting out of bed randomly throughout the night, and also waking at 5.30-6am.

his naps around that time also got shorter (45mins-1hr), which seemed weird, because just before that, they were around 3hrs.

here's the thing i am wondering about now after reading your post.  dh is a pilot and away alot.  ds LOVES his dad sooooooo much, to the point that i don't even get a look in when he is home.  they are inseparable.  the bond between them has really grown the last 3-4mo.  it's hard for dh to leave.  and bean sometimes comments, "don't like daddy in the car." 

when he is away, bean usually sleeps right through.  sometimes he is awake to say goodbye to daddy, sometimes dh leaves in the middle of the night.  so no pattern there.  but, when he is home, we get this waking thing.  i am wondering if he is (on his level) checking to see if daddy is still home.

lately, as close as he is dh, he doesn't like him to take him back to bed.  it has to be me.

His naps returned to normal (about 2hrs now), and i don't wake him unless it gets close to 4pm.  he goes down at 1pm.

his bedtime is 7.30pm but if he sleeps till 4pm, i move it to 8pm.

when the waking business occurs, i just escort him back to his room saying, "it's still nighttime, it's not time to get up yet, go back to sleep."  if he wakes close after 6.30am, i tell him, "it's not time to get up yet, go back to sleep, you can get up when your turtle light comes on (lamp on a timer)."

so, probably not much help to you, but just wanted to share a similar thing going on here.

i hope it eases soon, it did with us, i know the broken sleep for you is exhausting.

[catonss]

Hmmm...interesting Susan.  Maybe there is something there.  Well, not much we can do about that i guess - it's part of understanding how things work in life, who to trust, etc.  Just keep pouring on the love so they know that part is secure I guess!

Bella's mom (i can't find your name!)....Sounds like what you do when Bella wakes up is similar - go to her the first call, stand at the door after that.  I think the difference is how briefly you are in the room.  So maybe we can try rubbing her back for less time and then tell her we think she's old enough to not have us rub her back anymore, and go from there.  I think what you're suggesting is that if it's short and sweet, maybe it won't be worth her calling for me anymore?  right now, it's a good feeling to have me rub her back, so she'll call for it?  Makes sense to me....

Well, Elyse has a cold now - showed up yesterday morning.  So i'm sure that's playing into all this, may be the reason for a lot of it!  Although some of it was showing up before the cold.  So we'll just make it through the next couple days before we try much else.  Last night was pretty good though.  i think she was tired.  plus i gave her a little cold medicine, probably helped her sleep.

[catonss]

Layla,
YOu have said you often wake up your younger dd if she's napping too long - do you w/ your 2 year old?  At what time?  What have you heard others do?  My 2.5 year old has been sick these past few days and hasn't taken a nap (she never does this, pretty much only when sick)...but she's been doing about 12.5 hrs at night these days just fine.  Part of me thinks this is better than having a nap but a broken up night!?!?!?  BUt i also know you can't make much sense out of things when they're sick.  But i wondered if maybe she's ready to just have an hour long nap?  Again, there has been no normal lately...but for a while she was doing 1 hr 20 mins at nap consistently (but still waking at least 1 time in the night).....thoughts??

[Layla]

Well with Bella I usually don't have to wake her cause I guess she's regularised her clock to a short nap. Our day generally goes like this:

For the last few months this is whats been going on:

6-6.15 - wakes
12.30-12.45 - falls asleep (sometimes as late as 1pm but if any later then I don't let her nap )
1:30-2pm - wakes up (nap is usually 1hr long... sometimes 45mins short.... sometimes as long as 1.25hrs... a handful of times has been as long as 1.5hrs)
6pm - bedtime if NO NAP & she's asleep straight away
7pm - if short nap (45mins-1hr) & she's asleep almost straight away
7pm - if good nap (1.25-1.5hrs) & she's asleep by 7:30-7:45 (but if nap is 1.5hrs long she usually wakes up earlier the next day )

She might wake up at night here & there but I haven't put it down to the length of the nap.... just perhaps she's uncomfortable or maybe she's dreamt something weird.....

I think Bella is kinda doing the "dropping" the nap business on her own.... she's certainly shortened it on her own. She went down to 1.25hrs a while ago. I've only ever had to wake her up a handful of times. She is napping on av 5/7 days.

You know when Bella gave up naps (a few months ago) she was also sleeping straight through but after 2.5weeks of NO naps her mood/behaviour was getting worse & worse & we were faced with tantrums at 8am some days. It was horrible. When she started napping again, 20/30mins was a gift from above & her mood picked up significantly; 45mins seems like heaven & when she started doing 1-1.25hr naps.... I was over the moon!!! I know she is ok on an hour nap but you'll have to work out if your lo is. Maybe after she's feeling better you can give it a go & see how she does.

I know many moms have their lo's napping at this age (you know 1.5-2hr naps) & it doesn't seem to affect nights but I am pretty sure Bella is not in that category. I could probably make her nap longer by shortening her nights but she's unpleasant on anything less than 10.5hrs so I don't want to experiment anymore & just leave it as is. I don't think she's going to nap much past age 3... maybe 3/7 days 

So I would wait until she's over her cold/flu & then we can try to make sense of her schedule ... but its great to hear she didn't wake last night

[catonss]

OK - can I bring this up again?

DD is over her cold now.  For a few nights, she was waking at 9:30, just 2 hours after she fell asleep at 7:30...and waking earlier in the am at 6:30 (we were getting 7:20 or 7:30 to 7:00 for a while, with maybe one wake up)  I figured overtired, so i put her to bed earlier last night - at 7:10.  I think she was asleep right away.  She didn't wake last night, and slept until 7 am.  For the past week she has slept exactly one hour at nap, and i've left it at that.  Today, after a long night of sleep, she was still asleep at 1 hr 15 mins, and i woke her up.  And now tonight I left her room at 7:25, and she just fell asleep (i think) at 8:30.  I bet she'll be up tonight too... cause now she's overtired.

So do you think this is b/c her nap was longer than usual?  Could 15 minutes really effect it that much?  I read posts on here and it seems like some of you feel that way....  I can't seem to get the balance between too much sleep and too little sleep - it changes every day!  She seems to be so sensitive!  Again, I'm just so glad she's not throwing a fit anymore....i'd take this any day.  Maybe i'm wishing for something that won't ever happen...a stretch of time where there is a "normal"   ?  ?
 
thanks for any insight....

Sarah

[Layla]

Sarah, its hard to tell why she took longer to fall asleep last night. With some babies 15mins can make a difference to bedtime but I don't know if it would cause overtiredness overnight. Some are more sensitive than others & it does sound like she is too. Dd2 is pretty sensitive to A times & the amount of night sleep whereas with Bella I can stretch her to 6.5hrs A time or (like yesterday) to 7hrs A time with just a 45min nap and she is fine now. If it would be day after day she would get overtired but by a few days here & there she seems to do ok.

See how she sleeps tonight. I guess now that she is over the cold you could try 1hr nap for 3 days or so in a row and see how she acts. If she seems to manage well and her nights are good (no night wakings) then she is probably ready for a shorter nap. But alot leading up to age 3 do tend to take a long time to fall asleep at night... even with a short 1hr nap.... but thats something you might need to work out.

I think rather than worrying about it, take it one day at a time. She has improved her sleep overall with not throwing tantrums at nap and bedtime and thats a big step....