To feed or not to feed?

[blakenmom]

Ok, I need some guidance please.  Blake is just over 5 months now.  Two nights ago I decided I was going to try to get him through the night without feeding him.  When he wakes in the night I usually feed him if it has been at least 6 hours since his last feed unless I can really tell that he is hungry.  So I put him to bed at 7:30 (asleep by this time) and he woke at 12:45.  I went in gave him his paci, patted his tummy and waited for him to fall back asleep, which he did within 5 mins.  He didn't wake again until around 6, and I did the same thing as earlier and he slept until 7.  So I thought I was doing good until last night when he woke at 1:15, I gave him his paci, rubbed him and it took 15 mins. for him to go to sleep.  No big deal I thought until he continued to wake every 30 mins-1.5 hrs.  I was up nearly all night with him!  I finally decided to try feeding him at 5am just to make sure that he wasn't hungry, even though he wasn't crying just fussing and squirming.  He did drink the entire bottle (6oz) like he always does when I feed him at night. But he proceeded to wake 30 mins later and would NOT go back to sleep.  The early wakings have been getting progressively worse and then mess up our entire day schedule.  Can someone tell me if I really need to feed him at night?  And how do I cure the early wakings.  I see there are other posts with similar situations also, but I thought I should start a new post so I don't interfer with there's.  Below is our schedule.  He is with a nanny 3 days a week so it may differ a bit from day to day but this is basically how it has been going since the early wake ups.

He wakes several times before 7 but I try not to get him up before 7 anyways.

Wake 7am
E 7:30am
A
S 8:30/8:45
usually only get 45-1 hour here

Wake 9:30-10am
E 11:30am
A - depends how long he has slept for 1st nap
S 11:30-12pm

Wake 1pm-1:30pm
E 3:30pm
A
S 4pm

Usually I get a cat nap out of him before bed time also. 30-45mins.

We just switched to a 4 hour EASY about 2 weeks ago due to him not being hungry on the 3.5 hour.  And as you can see it has kind of messed up our routine because he usually is not able to stay up for 2 hours yet.  If I do keep him up it is really hard to get him to settle for his naps.  I should also say that he is still swaddled.  I plan on giving this up cold turkey next week as he is just getting to big, good idea or bad idea??  Also he has reflux and is on medication.  He is formula feed and we have started solids due to the reflux. I think he is teething but I can't be sure since I don't see anything coming through as of yet. 

Please tell me what I can do with my schedule to try to remedy the sleep situation, or is it something I have to deal with for a bit.  Let me know if you need any more info.
Thanks!
Sarah

PS: At what point do you go in when they wake at night?  If they fuss for 10 mins. and don't sound like they are going to fall asleep on their own? Or do you wait till it actually turns into a cry?  Won't they be harder to settle if you let it escalate into a cry??

[val_macy@yahoo.com]

I am sorry to say that I'm not responding with much advise, rather with sympathy.  I was going to post my own questions, but you aksed all of them for me!  It's as though we have the same child!  Paulina is 3 months 3 weeks old.  We began EASY after reading the Baby Whisperer solves all of your problems two months ago, but only started following Tracy's advise striclty for the past month.  Paulina has always woken at random times during the middle of the night (just once a night), which tells me it's not a habitual waking problem.  And she would always takes a full feed and then sleep well the rest of the night.  I've tried to increase her food intake during the day, as Tracy suggested, but she won't take more - she spits out the bottle (I'm unable to breastfeed).  My husband and I are worried that at almost 4 months, she should be sleeping through the night, so recently, we began doing shush pat when she awakes to get her through the night without feeding, but it does not seem to work.  It will get her back to sleep, but only for a short while.  We did it 4 times last night, and my husband finally got her up at 6:00am and fed her at 6:30.  It seems as though life was easier when we just would feed her when she'd wake and then she'd sleep the rest of the night through.  If she goes down with shush pat and only sleeps for 30-60 minutes, could it be that she keeps waking becuase she is truly hungry?  Should we just feed her?  I'm worried that by feeding her each night, we're going to create a nasty habit, but I'm also worried that she's hungry and jsut not ready yet to sleep thorugh the night yet and that I'm forcing her into a schedule she's not ready for.  HELP!!!!  Paulina's Mom

[val_macy@yahoo.com]

I forgot to mention that we recently have been moving Paulina from a 3-4 hour schedule, and like Blake, she isn't able to stay up for 2 hours.  If I try to push her to stay up longer (after her first yawn), she is SO difficult to get down and when she does go down, she only sleeps for 40 minutes.  I'm considering putting her down earlier and doing longer naps and possibly wake to sleep to lenghten her naps (I usually due shush pat, and it gets her back down most of the time, but it doesn't always work.  Sometimes she just gets so worked up, I quit after about 30 minutes of trying and only if it's under 30 mintues till her next feed time.  In these cases, I let her do a very mellow activity, since she should be sleeping until her next feed.  By the way, we still swaddle her, but now I let out one of her arms during hte day so she can suck on her hand, which seems to sooth her a bit.

Re: when to respond, I dont' respond if she is doing a mantra cry, only if she is giving a true cry druing the day and at night.  If she is truly crying when she wakes at night, we've always fed her and she's always shown us that she is hungry.  On the rare occasion that she would wake shortly after we'd feed her, we'd do shush pat and she'd go back down.   Hope this is helpful and hope we're doing the right things!!!!

[tuscany]

My suggestion is to stop the night time feeding.

My daughter Sarah is almost five-month. Just two weeks ago, she was still waking up once every two hours at night for feeding; and often after the feeding, she would not go back to sleep and stay awake for an hour or even longer. I was sleep-deprived and getting desperate. And she was having very watery poo. I took her to see PD and was told 1. I was overfeeding her (I was trying to feed her once every two hours during most part of the day too). and 2. Babies heavier than 14 lbs (or so I do not remember the exact number the PD said) does not need the night feeding anymore.  If I keep feeding her during the night, I am training her to wake up at night AND be hungry to eat.

Then I found this forum and read Tracy's book. I started sleep training just 2 weeks ago -- beginning with no night time feeding from 11pm till 7am; and followed a 4-hour EASY. It took me about 10-day in total but it worked like a magic. Sarah now sleeps from 8-7 without waking (1 dream feed at 10:30pm); one night she even did 8-9:30! Her day time naps become much longer as well.  In fact, now I have to go wake her up otherwise she sleeps for three hours.

The first few nights were very tough. When she cried, I just stayed with her and putting my hands on her and comforting her.  For about three nights, I got little sleep.  And I kept wondering whether I should feed her around 5am.  That is what I did with my elder daughter.  But by keeping the 5am feeding, she started to wake up earlier and earlier in the morning.  So with Sarah, I decided to do it once for all.  Now I could not be happier that I made the right decision.

Hope this helps.

[Grace's Mom]

Before you stop the night feed all together be sure your lo isn't really hungry.  Some babies still need a night feed for quite some time and that one night could have been a fluke.  My daughter slept all night at 3 months one time but needed a night feed after that night until she was 6 months old. 

I also would try not to do too many things at once.  Once the 4 hour EASY settles in to place, then move to weaning of the night feed, if your lo doesn't need it anymore that is and then more to the swaddle weaning.  You want to tackle one thing at a time or it will be too much for your little one to handle.

Your 1st A time is really short and by 5 months he should be able to stay up longer than 1 hour, which is why your lo is waking up at the 45 minute mark.  45 minute naps usually = more A time is needed.   I would try for 1.5+ hours there.  Just make sure you have a really good amount of quiet time before hand and a nice peaceful nap routine so that your lo doesn't get overstimulated. 

Remember that with anything you try, be consistant and know that it takes a good 3-5 days for their bodies to adjust to change so give it time before deciding if something does or doesn't work. 

***You only go into them if they are REALLY crying!  Other than that let them settle themselves or they will think you need to be in there in order for them to settle. 

Let us know how things go.

[blakenmom]

Ok, so I should wait until his sleeping is better before I stop swaddling, correct?  And I should feed him if I think he may be hungry? (which I do) And if he still won't settle after that I need to let him fuss and try to settle himself, only going in if it turns into a cry?  I am just worried about him not being able to settle himself and therefore fussing for hours and then being OT??? UGH.

[vadensmommy]

Let them fuss was what my thoughts were.  It is so hard and just grates on my nerves some days to hear dd in there just fussin away, but ultimately that is what she sometimes NEEDS to do to comfort herself.  If he needs you, he will let you know don't worry.  I never go to dd unless it is the "MOM, I NEED YOUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!" cry if she is supposed to be sleeping.  Now, if it is time to be awake, and has woken from a nap at the proper time and is just fussing, that's ok because it is time to be up - I go ahead and get her up, but it's a different matter if it is sleep time.  I do my best not to let her cry it out, because that is just heart breaking, but I do let her do her fair share of "fussing".  DH still thinks I am letting her just scream alone, but he just isn't around when the "MOM, I NEED YOU" type cries happen, so he doesn't know the difference like I do.  Hope that helps a bit!

Do you think that he may be addicted to his paci?  Some babies get addicted and constantly have to be "replugged" because they can't do it themselves, and can't sleep without it.  No experience here, dd wouldn't ever take a paci (which now I am thankful for).

I wouldn't wean the swaddle yet either.  If it is helping the sleep, then I would make sure he knows how to self soothe and get this routine hammered out before tackling that just yet.  Also once we got dd on a really good EASY, the NW disappeared all on its own -she'd been doing 1nw between 4-5am.  But, this was also when she was about 9wks old, so the habit may be a bit more ingrained in your dh.  I think Melissa is right.  For right now I would 1) work on getting him on a good EASY (we were pretty strict in the beginning and treated it more like a schedule instead of a routine at first till we got going well), then 2) Work on the night wakings - you can try a few different things - if he eats at the same time every night you can sort of treat it like a DF and a W2S where you just get him up 30min earlier than usual and feed an ounce less than usual every few days till you drop it - doing it gradually can help him replace those night calories with daytime calories.  Or you can do cold turkey and do pu/pd or pat/shh to get him back to sleep still - your choice. then 3) once everything has calmed down I would work on the swaddle!  hope that helps, and good luck!

[blakenmom]

Thanks ladies.  I think tonight I am going to put him to bed by 7, swaddle him nice and tight and cross my fingers he makes it till at least 1am.  If he wakes then I will let him fuss for a bit and see if he settles, if not feed him.  If he wakes after that I will try to let him settle himself and if it turns into a cry I will go in and try to settle him.  Sound good?

[vadensmommy]

Sounds good.
Question: How many oz does he typically take at night?

[blakenmom]

He takes a full 6 oz. at night usually.

[Erisa]

Hi-
  I just posted myself in the EASY forum, with many questions, but one was" to feed or not to feed"??  I'm having mutiple issues but was encouraged by some of this thigns I read in this post about night feeding. 
   When you say he takes a full 6 oz at night, is this in addition to the dreamfeed?

[blakenmom]

no, I do not do a DF.  He would never take it when offered.

[Erisa]

ah- I had this same problem.  So when he wakes up in the middle of the night he chugs his 6 oz?
    I have gone from feeding my DD once at night, where she chugged the bottle, so several times at night where she only takes  a few onces.  (I do bottle and BF, so I'm not entirely sure how much she take when I BF, but I don't think it's very much).  Additionally she wakes several time to be "replugged" (a whole separate issue).
   So, if you get rid of his night feed, how long will he be going without food? (Assuming you don't reintroduce the DF).

     Ideally- I'd like to get my DD to eating once at night.  In a perfect world it would be a 11 DF and then wake at 7, but I'm perfectly happy with 1 middle of the night feed if she needs this.  I don't think she can go from 7-7:30 till 7 am without eating and I have trouble with the DF, since she doesnt' want to eat then. Especially since I can rarely get her to eat at  7pm, she eats at 5:30-6.
  Another Tuscany in this thread said her PD mentioned that babies over 14 lb (?) can go the whole night without eating, but I'm unclear as to how long this means- 6 hrs. or the whole night as 8 pm- 7 am, or 11pm -7 am?  Tuscany if you read this again, can you help?

[vadensmommy]

Well, there are plenty of babies who do at 5mo sleep all night long (10-12hrs) without a feeding.  We have been doing a df since 8 weeks old, and last night was the last time for us to do it.  I really think it had started to interfere with dd's sleep - she rested GREAT at night, but we were having REALLY early wakeups - 4:30am

So you might try weaning the night feed really greadually which is exactly what we did with the DF.  DD got a 5oz DF at 10:30 typically so the first three nights we did a 4oz feeding 30min earlier at 10, then the next three nights we did 3oz feedings at 9:30, then next three nights it was 2oz at 9, then the last three nights was 1oz at 8.  So if he usually wakes at 1am wanting to be fed (or whatever time it usually is) you would set your alarm and get him up at 12:30am for three nights and feed him 5oz instead of his normal 6, and then the next three nights you would do midnight for 4oz, then 11:30 for 3oz, then 11 for 2oz, then 10:30 for 1oz, and then drop it alltogether hopefully. 

My guess is he can probably make it all nightbut has gotten used to eating at night and taking those calories in and may need those calories upped during the day instead.  So the first three days when you drop back the night feed by 1oz, you would try to get that extra ounce of formula into him sometime the next day.  By gradually decreasing the amount of the night feed every three days you would give him the chance to up his calories gradually during the day.  I hope that makes sense!!  Let us know how things are going!

[blakenmom]

I think I will start trying that tonight.  I have to leave him with Grandma for a week while we move cross country so it would be nice if she didn't have to do a night feed.  Don't think I can have him totally weaned by then but it will be a start.  Thanks for the info!  I will let you know how we do.