Day 3 of EASY - so exhausted

[ElsMom]

Hello All!  I'm new to the forum and happy to have found some other moms who aren't going to tell me just to try CIO.  I have a 4.5 month old spirited daughter, and I think I have read every 'get your baby to sleep' book that's out there.  BW made the most sense, so here I am.  3 days ago, our "schedule" looked something like this:

wake sometime between 5:30 and 6:45, eat (tried to delay this meal until 7 when possible)
2 hours later - nap in swing (oops - accidental parenting) - usually 1.5 to 2 hrs
wake and eat
repeat...
7:00 pm bath time, book, nurse - asleep between 7:45 and 8
up during night 5-10 times, usually could get away with only nursing once around 1 am, but sometimes up for an hour looking around crib

Monday I started EASY, and since I had to break her of the swing habit, I was really worried.  I did PUPD for an hour and 20 minutes for her first nap, and then 30 for her 2nd, and then 5 for her 3rd.  She doesn't seem to sleep past 4:00 pm no matter when she goes down - could be 3:30 or could be 2:00 - she's always been this way.  On day 2, yesterday, she went down for each nap like a dream, in about 5-15 minutes.  The problem is, none of these naps have lasted longer than 40 minutes, and 7 of the 8 since we started have been 20-30 minutes.  I then spend the rest of the naptime doing PUPD or hiding behind the door while she looks around her crib, yawning and not crying.  She's only actually gone back to sleep twice, usually I just do PUPD until it's time to get up and eat.  I feel like she has an alarm clock or something that tells her to wake up and need me after 30 minutes.  This is why I went to the swing in the first place - because I noticed that she would sleep longer in it.

So I guess my question is how long should I expect it to take for me to be able to successfully extend her naps?  I don't need an overnight miracle, but I haven't seen any progress at all on nap length (I know it's only been 3 days, but people are pressuring me to give up and do CIO and I want to prove them wrong).  I've seen progress on wake up time and going to sleep time, but not nap length.  Our schedule right now looks something like this:
1:00 am - feed
5:45 am - PUPD until about 6:15
7:00 am - wake and feed
9:00 am - nap
9:30 am - wake, happy in crib (I don't make eye contact, just observe out of sight and go in every 10 minutes or so to tell her it's time for sleep and shush pat)
10:00 am - crying, PUPD until 10:30
10:30 - feed
12:00 pm - nap
12:30 - wake, repeat of 9:30 am
2:00 - feed
3:15/3:30 - nap
4:00 awake for night
6:00 fussiness starts, unwilling to nap
6:45 - bath, book, and nurse
7:30 - bed
1 to 2 wakings before 1:00 am feed, 1 to 2 after feed

I know there's some progress here, and I'm trying to focus on it, but my back is killing me from hours of leaning over her crib shushing and patting. 

I'm sorry this is long - I just SO want this to work, and I need encouragement if someone has been there and succeeded.  Even if you tell me it's going to take another couple of weeks just like this, if there's a 1.5 hour nap on the other side, I'll stick with it.

Thank you!

[MJMom]

There will be an 1.5 hour nap on the other side!!!  Which of Tracy's books do you have?  Baby Whisperer or Baby Whisperer Solves All your Problems?

You are doing awesome to stick with PU/PD so long!  I know it's back breaking but really really worth it in the long run!

I wish I could tell you how long it's going to take.  Since your DD hasn't been on a sleep routine, there is a whole lot of teaching that needs to happen.  It looks like the nap PU/PD has worked REALLY well for you!  It should take about 3-7 days to see changes, but since you're changing up how she has lived her life up until this point, it might take a little bit longer.  The 45 minute nap is very common even among moms who have done BW since their LOs were brought home from the hospital
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0
This link should help a bit.

As far as the 30 minute nap - that tends to be Overstimulation or Overtired.  So could be that 2 hrs is a bit too long for an A time first thing in the day. Often the first nap is a continuation of the night sleep, so keep that first A time low key and you may potentially need to put her down sooner.

Also, I'm curious why you didn't start her on a 4-hr EASY instead of 3.5 hr?  Could she not make it to 3.5 hrs to eat?  Developmentally, she should be ready to go 4-hrs, but habit may keep her at 3.5 hrs.  So, she may have already gotten all the day time sleep she needs by 4:00 and thus unable to nap.  Downside here is that she is too young to be able to 3.5 hrs at the end of the day, thus all the OT fussiness.  On a 4-hr EASY, she drops one nap or in your case, redistributes the 3 naps that she is taking so she has a late day catnap.

HTH!  Thanks for all the details.  It does help to find where we can tweak your routine.

You REALLY are doing great!!!  It's a lot of work in the beginning, but definitely worth it!!!  Please let me know if you have more questions! 

[ElsMom]

Thank you for the encouragement.  I have both books.  I decided to do a 3.5 hour easy because after observing for a couple of days, it seemed like trying 4 hours would end up with her being asleep in the middle of a feed at least once a day, and because I've always had such a hard time with the catnaps in the late afternoon, so I thought three 1.5 hour naps might work better.  Am I right that if I do 4 hours, then she's awake for 2 and then asleep for 2?  Sometimes she can't stay away for the full two (that's E and A, she eats for about 15 minutes), and even in her swing never napped for more than 2 hours, usually more like 1.5.  So I thought a 1.5 - 2 hour awake time followed by a 1.5 hour sleep time matched better with 3.5 hours than 4, even though I think you're right and she could last 4 hours between feedings.  I just didn't know what I'd do with the extra time if she consistently woke up 30 minutes before a feed and had plenty of nap.  I think part of the problem with the late afternoon (past 4) nap is that things are just busier around the house and her little spirited self doesn't want to miss it.  Her dad comes home, there are dinner smells, etc.  When she was getting 3-4 hours of daytime sleep in her swing, she seemed perfectly happy to go so long between 4 and bedtime.  Now I'm just worried that the short naps are going to mess with that, and I'm going to have to PUPD for a late catnap that I don't fully believe will happen.  She's only gotten about 1.5 hours of day time sleep the last two days, and her poor face looks so pitiful and zoned by 6:00 pm.

Another question about the 4 hour routine.  If I'm doing 3.5 hours, but I do finally get her to go back down at the end of the nap using PUPD, should I let her sleep longer so it will be 4 hours until the  next feed, or is it crucial that I do the same thing at the same time every day so it sets her little clock?  I'm dreading daylight savings time this weekend if that's going to screw us all up all over again!!

Thanks again!

[MJMom]

It really depends.  Each LO is a bit different.  I haven't gotten a 2 hr nap out of my LO for quite some time, but she'll do 2 1.5 hrs and a 45 minute.  Since there is a range of normal (14-16 I think...) there can be a variation in routine from different kids.
Your EASY could also look more like EASAY since he can't do as long naps and that is fine too.  Developmentally though, she is really ready for it.  If she doesn't take the afternoon cat nap, (my DD isn't too regular about it either) if the two other naps are longer, it could make up for it. 

If your DD goes down right at the end of the 3.5 hrs, just let her take the nap.  I've let my DD go 4.5 hrs for the same reason.  The sleep is more important if they have ben up that long.

It's the EAS cycle and responding to your LOs cues that is more important than the clock!

HTH!  Keep us posted with updates and questions!!

[ElsMom]

MJMom, I just want to say thank you thank you thank you!  The link and your encouragement were so helpful!  I tried a catnap yesterday afternoon, and I was able to get her to sleep from 4:00 to 4:40. I was patting her almost the entire time, but I saw proof that it's possible!  We'll be trying again today around 5 - we'll see.  Also, the link gave me some great ideas, and today I tried putting her in her sleep sack that we use at night, and going in at the 25 minute mark of her nap.  At exactly 40 minutes, she stirred, and I patted, and she went back to sleep.  I had to pat her two more times in the next 5 minutes, and then she was good for another 40 minutes!  25 minutes into the 2nd cylce of that nap, I went back in, and at exactly an hour and 20 minutes, she stirred (it's amazing to me how it's like clockwork), I patted, and she went back to sleep.  I patted once more, and then she slept another 40 minutes!  It was a two hour nap on just day 4 of EASY!  I am so excited!  I'm going to do the same thing tomorrow and see what happens, but I am so very encouraged right now.  Thank you SO MUCH!

[yaya]

HURRAH! keep up the good work

[MJMom]

AWESOME!  So glad it helped!

[ElsMom]

Well, today's catnap never happened, but I'm still excited about the 2 hour nap.  She wasn't sleepy at all at 5 pm, and I went through her routine, put her in her crib, and she just looked at me and smiled for about 15 minutes, so I gave up.  She didn't start to act tired at all until 6:00, and then she fell asleep nursing and it kinda ruined bedtime.  She was able to go 4 hours today, so here's what I think I'll try tomorrow:
E - 7:00 AM
A
S - 9:00 - 11:00 AM
Y
E - 11:00 AM
A
S - 1:00 - 3:00 PM
Y
E - 3:00 PM
... and that's when I get confused. I'd rather do a cluster feed and one night feed than a dream feed, so if I feed her around 5:00, then should I try to put her down for a catnap?  I'm really tempted to get the swing back out just for the catnap, but I'm afraid it's too early and she'll revert to the old habits I'm still breaking.  She was perfectly happy and awake for 3 hours this evening, but that only works if her last nap ends at 4 or 4:30, not 3:00.  I really don't want to move her bedtime any early than 7:30 or so.  The other option is not doing so much PUPD in the morning and letting her get up and eat around 6:15 or 6:30 like she seems to want to do anyway.  That would put the catnap closer to 4, and maybe she'd take it.  But lately she's only getting about 9 hours of nighttime sleep with all of her nightwakings, and I know that's not enough, so it seems like I need to encourage no earlier than 7 AM wakeup.  I know we're getting there, things just still need a bit of tweaking.  Now I'm confused and I don't even know what routine I'm aiming for!

[MJMom]

That late afternoon cat nap is interesting... I can sometimes get it, and sometimes not.  She was probably very well rested at that time, so didn't feel the need.  Keep logging her hours of total sleep per day and the break down as well as her fussy factor.  All babies have a magic number of sleep that keeps them happy.  Once you see that over a few days (particularly the happy days) you can see whether you need to lessen the nap time by a bit.  If she's only getting 9 hrs at night, that only totals 13, so she probably needs the catnap, but was so rested from her other nap.

If you can't get her to take the late afternoon catnap, then give her quiet, dark crib time, or hold her and carry her around and show her things around the house, or take her for a walk in the stroller.  She may sleep, she may not, but the quiet active time is not as tiresome as the total awake time. 

HTH

[ElsMom]

Well, here's an update from today - again, completely different.  She woke up 4 times last night, once to eat, once with a dirty diaper, and twice to say hello and look around.  She slept until 6:40 am with PUPD from 6:00 am until about 6:25.  First E at 7, then I tried to follow her cues more than the clock.  She napped from 8:45 to 10:05, wouldn't go back down, so I fed her at 10:30.  She then napped from 12:05 to 1:25, wouldn't go back down.  E at 2:00.  I was planning on attempting to put her back down around 3:15, but an errand came up that should have taken 30 minutes and ended up taking 2 hours, so she was awake from 1:25 until 5:00, and amazingly happy the entire time, although I was worried about her night.  She napped as soon as we got home at 5:00 (I can't believe she didn't fall asleep in the car!) until 5:30, then E at 5:30 and was pretty much fussy until bath time.  Luckily, she loves bath time so much, we can always start it a little early and extend it longer if we want to keep bedtime the same.  She went down ok tonight, but didn't get much sleep today - about 8 1/2 hours last night and just over 2 hours today.  I know that's not enough!!  The last few days, she's been averaging 11-12 total hours of sleep every 24.  I know that's probably at least 2 hours short of what she needs, and if she didn't wake at night as much, she'd be getting pretty close to 14 hours, even with her kind of erratic naps.  So anyway, today's naps (the first two, anyway) made me think maybe she needs 3 1.5 hour naps, and occcasionally she'll have a 2 hour nap as a fluke.  That's what she always did in the swing - her naps were between 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 hours long, with the occasional 2 hour nap thrown in.  So I guess I need to spend some time on the nightwakings thread of the Sleep forum.  In general, though, does getting a good routine during the day usually solve lots of NW issues, or will I need to address those separately?

Thanks for your help!!

[MJMom]

The day time routine and the night time routine are closely intertwined.  Sleep begets sleep, lack of sleep brings about lack of sleep. 

Have you read some of the FAQ's on nap extension?  It's a fairly common issue that you are facing. 
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0

Post on the NW boards as well.  When my DD was right around your age, I had similar issues.  I went back to work and her day and night sleep went out the window.  It took a couple of weeks to get back on track, but we were able to work with the nanny.  Once her naps got back on track, her NWs largely subsided as well.