Son waking at night more often

[LittleBen]

My son is 15 months and 6 days, he was an avid thumb sucker until about 4 weeks ago when he contracted Hand-Foot-and-Mouth Virus.  Now he hasn't been sleeping well at all.  He has been waking more often and at least two times a night. 
He has still not gone back to thumb sucking since he was ill.   He was always so good about self-soothing with his thumb, but now he is very frustrated all the time and uptight. 
He wakes more thru the night, and he used to just suck his thumb and go back to sleep, now he acts like he wants to try to suck his thumb but as soon as he takes his thumb to his mouth he pulls it back away or he will only put the tip of his thumb in his mouth for a second and then pull it away.
While he was sick he had the sores that you get from the virus on his thumb and his mouth.  They are sores that hurt and not itch, so I personally think that he is afraid to suck his thumb because it is going to hurt.
I think a lot of his sleep issues stem back to his illness.  Now we haven't been able to have a full night's sleep and I think it is because he can't self-soothe.  We have tried a pacifier with no luck, he really has never been a paci child.
He has a blanky and bunny that we have been trying to use for him to sleep with, but he was using those with his thumb before.  Now he is still absent of the thumb.
Does anyone have any advice on how to get him to suck his thumb again.  I want any advice out there.  I know you can't force your child to do something, but I know he clearly still wants his thumb.  Are there any parents of thumb suckers or is there any body that has any advice or suggestions.
We need a self-soother and a thumb was the answer. 
He was a thumb sucker in the womb and started sucking his thumb after about 2 weeks from birth and sucked it up till he was sick 4 weeks ago.
Help, please!!! 
His routine is about like this (lately anyway):
Wake-up around 4:30-5:30 ish and doesn't want to go back to sleep and is up for the morning.
6:30 am Nurse
8:30 am Breakfast (cereal, fruit, whole milk, yogurt or cottage cheese)
Lunch 10:45-11:00 am (toddler-size meal, fruit, veggie, cottage cheese or yogurt and sometimes a cookie)
Nap at 11:00 am (11:30 at the latest) usually 1.5-3 hrs (closer to the 1.5-2 hr)
Snack 2-2:30 pm (fruit puffs or goldfish crackers, yogurt or cottage cheese, whole milk)
Dinner (between 5 pm & 6 pm)
Bath (6-6:30 pm depends on dinnertime)
Play/Story/Nurse
Bed (7 pm-7:30 pm) earliest he has shown signs to want to be in bed was 6:30 pm and it is more signs of wanting to start bedtime routine.
I really don't purposely keep him up, but when I am putting him to bed at 7 pm and he is waking sometimes as early as 3:30 am or between 4:30-5:30 am something isn't right.
Last night we had him in bed and he was asleep by 7:10 pm (right at signs of him being tired we got him ready for bed).  He woke at 11:05 pm for about 5 minutes and then again at 11:35 pm for about 5 minutes, and then again at 3:00 am and at that time he was fighting me and he wouldn't go back to sleep in his crib so I brought him to our room and he settled after about 15 minutes and went to sleep.  He then slept till 5:15 am and was up about 45 min fidgeting and crawling around between us and whining.  Then he laid down on his own and went back to sleep till about 6:15 am then he was up for good.
This is basically out day and sleep in a nut shell, it has been interrupted every night like this since he was sick.
Now his new thing is he begins to put his thumb to his mouth and stops then he grabs my shirt and acts like he's hungry and if I do choose to feed him its like he's using me as his sucking satisfaction (instead of his thumb or even paci) and sometimes does that at night before bed too, he'll eat then he'll just lay there and suck.  The reason I think that is what he's doing is because when he's upset that is what he wants a lot now and in the morning when he's ready to be up he nurses and once he's done eating he's done and trying to get down off my lap.  I don't know what to do.
I totally am not trying to keep him up later than he wants to be, but I don't want my breast to turn into his thumb.  He never did this before with the breastfeeding.  He would eat and then he was done.  Even as a baby he'd eat the nipple would drop from his mouth, his thumb would go in and he was ready for bed.  Now he eats and then just keep sucking until I pull him off which in turn makes him mad.
Anyway, advice please.

[andibig]

I'd be really tempted to put him to bed even earlier than 7 if he has been awake since 4.30.he could be waking even earlier because he is accumalating OT and an earlier bedtime would help that.
Is there any chance he would take two naps still?
How long has it been since he recovered from his illness?
Do you think he is rejecting the thumb because the boob is on offer instead?

Sorry about the questions just trying to get a clearer picture.

[LittleBen]

I can try the earlier bed time, especially since it is the weekend.
I don't think two naps will work anymore, as he worked himself to one back at about a year and it seemed that if he napped in the am it interfered with the afternoon one and if that was late it interfered with bedtime.  He is doing good with the one nap schedule so I think that is ok.  I called my sister (my sitter) this afternoon and she said he has a good nap from 11:30 am till around 2 pm, so about 2.5 hours.
He has been over his illness for about 4 weeks now, as got it back in early October and had it about 5 days (hand-foot-and-mouth).  We think he got it from a shopping cart.  The one time we went to the store and didn't cover the cart (we normally use a cart cover or his stroller).  Unfortunately, that day we had his stroller at home and the cart cover was wet from being in the laundry, and what do you know about 5 days later he broke out.  He was very fussy and irritable and didn't want to sleep or suck his thumb and nothing soothed him.  He would just sit and cry and wake up and cry out in pain.  With this illness they develop sore (kind of like chickenpox) on their hands, feet, and in their mouth and in some severe cases on their bottom and limbs.  Ben had them on the tops of his feet, the palms of his hands and the thumb he sucks (really bad on it), in his mouth, on his bottom and he had a few on one leg and on one arm.  They are very painful and blister and the ones in the mouth are almost like ulcers.  He was very fussy and irritable, and had extreme insomnia and nothing settled him--I read this is common in toddlers and infants because of the pain.  He didn't sleep well at all and was very inconsolable.  Ever since then he hasn't sucked his thumb.  He'll take it to his mouth or put the tip in his mouth for a few seconds and pull away.  That is why we think he still wants his thumb, but is just scared it will hurt.  It sucked.
I don't think he is rejecting the thumb because of the boob being offered, because he has been nursing since birth and his breastfeeding routine has been the same since he was around one year old (since he started drinking whole milk)  he only nurses twice a day in the  morning at wake up before I leave for work and at night after his bath.  He had this same routine when he sucked his thumb.  He has just been recently eating for the milk, then once he's done with that since my nipple is there he is using it to satisfy his sucking needs and as a soother (where as before he used to finish eating and then suck his thumb if he wanted to suck). 
We have tried pacifiers and several styles at that, 3 different types.  Nothing seems to be working.  I feel we're never going to get this resolved.  I don't know what to do anymore. 

[Layla]

What about offering him a blanket or a lovey of some sort to suck on instead? Jasmine scrunches up the corner of her blanket & uses that to self soothe?

[LittleBen]

I offered him a blanky and his bunny back in September when my husband had been gone for 3 days, as he was pretty upset and I thought it would help.  It did seem to help.
He now has been sleeping with them both since, but once again this was before he was sick and stopped sucking his thumb. 
We have offered other lovey's (stuffed animals) since then and he doesn't show interest.  We have also offered the pacifiers (3 different styles) and none of them seem to help either.
Its frustrating because I feel like we have tried everything. 

[Layla]

How does he fall asleep for the nap?

[LittleBen]

He goes to sleep really well for his naps.  All my sister does is she gives him his lunch and then just takes him to the pack-n-play she sleeps him in, puts him in it, and will either rub his back for a few seconds or 'll just walk out and he goes to sleep on his own and a lot of times without fussing at all.  She doesn't use any special technique and doesn't have any special props.

[andibig]

Mmm interesting.
I think he has worked out that obviously your sister isn't going to offer a BF to help him go to sleep.I think thats why inc the fact that he was ill he is no longer sucking his thumb.
Have you tried the same way of settling him yourself as your sister has?

[Layla]

I think if he is capable of putting himself to sleep for a nap then he can do the same at night. I would actually give wi/wo a go as I think the breast is a prop & if he doesn't need it at nap time then he can learn to self soothe at night as well. I wouldn't be pushing for a dummy as you will have to wean it eventually...

If he's awake at 1pm from him nap (so nap is from 11.30-1pm) then I would put him to sleep no later than 6.30pm.... he will probably wake up as early as he does still (around 5.30am) but at least he would have had more sleep overnight & will catch up will sleep overall. I don't think its necessary that he can't self soothe & thats why he is waking so often but it could also be from overtiredness...

Would you be comfortabel with wi/wo?

Posted same time as you Andrea

[LittleBen]

I actually tried the wi/wo with him on Saturday and he was so upset and angry that he acted almost scared and was very clingy the rest of the afternoon like he was afraid we were going to leave him, then he would cry when we went back in the room.  I don't want him afraid of his room or insecure and think we're leaving him.  So, I'm not sure if I'll be able to do it.  It tore at my heart doing it Saturday.
We can try the 6:30 pm bedtime, I am not sure if that will always work out because of our schedules from work, but we can try it.
I am confused by the post from "sashas mummy" please clarify the part on the thumb sucking.
I have tried the same techniques at my sister and he will not "just" lay down and go to sleep even if I pat his butt or rub his back.  He does it for her, but not for me.

[andibig]

I am confused by the post from "sashas mummy" please clarify the part on the thumb sucking.
I have tried the same techniques at my sister and he will not "just" lay down and go to sleep even if I pat his butt or rub his back.  He does it for her, but not for me.

Apologies about the confusion.I could be wrong here but i got the impression from the previous posts that you were offering a BF if he wasn't interested in sucking his thumb.(if i was wrong about that pls correct me!!).If he knows that mum will offer the BF then he doesn't need to settle himself with his thumb.whereas obviously your sister wouldn't offer a BF and he knows that and settles to sleep.hope that makes sense and i'm not completly way off base.

[LittleBen]

I understand now, I know that I don't offer the breast because he isn't sucking.  I haven't changed the times I nurse or the reason I offer it.  I only nurse him in the am after he wakes up before I go to work and I nurse him after his bath.  Other than that I don't offer him the breast.  I do nurse him on the weekends when he would normally get a sippy during the week, but that is the same thing I have been doing for months now.  I have been doing this nursing schedule for about 2-3 months, so this was way before he quite sucking his thumb.
Sorry that I was confusing and may have given you the wrong impression. 
Basically, now it just seems that he nurse longer and will slow to just a suck after he is done nursing for milk.  This seems to be more recent since the illness. 
Who knows the reason for it.  My husband has wondered if the sores that were on his thumb were so bad that they maybe did nerve damage on his thumb skin or maybe it is more sensitive and taking longer to heal.  I don't know.
Who knows I feel like I am at a loss for ideas.  I don't know what to do anymore.

[andibig]

Ahhhhh-understand now.

The only thing that I can think of that would be stopping him from sucking his thumb would be due to  the illness.He may remember from his illness that his thumbs were sore and therefore ddn't want to suck them and this has carried on after the illness.
something you could try that i did with sasha (although she was much much younger and we were trying to break the feeding to sleep cycle) is when he is finished BF and you feel he is just sucking for comfort ,try gently leading his thumb to his mouth.I don't know if this will encourage him to start using his thumb again but may help him with the association of thumb sucking=comfort.

[LittleBen]

Ok, I'll have to try that.  I have tried once before but it has been a while. 
Now he is ill and fighting an ear infection of course that has caused som major set backs.  See my copy below from another post.

Well, his temp went up to 102.8 around 11:30 am so I got him in to see the Dr. at 1:00 pm and he has an ear infection, it wasn't a bed one but had we waited it could have been.  Now I feel like we have had some major set-backs since Tuesday.  I was out of work Tuesday and yesterday with him because of his fever.  Anyway, Tuesday he refused to lay down and take his nap, but he was so exhausted (first of all after my husband left for work, around 9:45 am he was very upset because he didn't want daddy to go so  I was holding him comforting him).  Next thing I know he is asleep on my shoulder, I tried to lay him down in his crib but as soon as I lowered him down he woke and was upset, so I held him again to calm him.  He fell back asleep and I was tried too and almost fell asleep myself, I sat in the recliner holding him for 1.5 hrs.  I know, "big mistake."  That night he was really fussy and his fever was 103 and he was very restless, I had a hard time laying him down again.  I finally got him down around 6:40 pm (my goal was 6:30 at the latest).  After 1 hour he woke up and was very upset and would not lay back down, so once again I made the mistake of holding him.  When my husband got home (as he had gone out bowling) he took him and laid him in the crib and he then slept from 9:00 pm till 3:40 am in his crib then he was pretty wide awake, but I sure wasn't I was exhausted, and I tried 15 minutes to get him to lay back down and he refused.   I then brought him to our room and tried his pack-n-play, that didn't work either.  I finally laid him in bed with us and he settled after about 10 min and went to sleep and slept (restlessly) until about 5:30 am and then we got up and took his temp it was 100.4 so we gave him so Tylenol and his antibiotic and I nursed him and got dressed for the day.  Everything seemed to be going good until it was naptime again, he fell asleep in my arms again and I tried to lay him down in his crib, once again he refused and started crying so I got him out and held him and he fell back asleep, so I tried again to lay him down and it still didn't work so that time I left him in the crib and walked out.  You would have thought the world was going to end, he got so angry, but I decided I would give him 10 minutes to calm and he did after about 5, but he never went to sleep.  He just sat in his crib staring off into space and kept rubbing his eyes (we have a video monitor), he did that for over 20 minutes, then he started crying.  I let him cry for about 10 minutes and then got him out.  He wanted me to hold him and was trying again to sleep on my shoulder, so I put him down and told him to go play.  He was mad about that too.  Finally he calmed down and was playing on the floor with my husband, but he was so tired he looked awful.  He started to dose off around 3:30 pm in my arms and I got up and put him back down as I didn't want him taking that late of a nap.  Then when it was time for bed, I started trying to get him down by 6:30, he refused, 7:00 he refused, 8:00 he refused, I ended up holding him an hour and he fell asleep and we were able to get him in his crib.  He slept till 12:30 pm and woke and wouldn't go down and I tried laying down with him, he refused, he wanted me to hold him, finally I did just so he'd sleep and he slept for about an hour like that (because I fell asleep holding him).  We got him bac kin his crib and he slept till 5:30 am and was up for the day. 
Now I don't know what to do, I was trying to be a comforting mother for him when he was sick, now I feel like its backfiring.
I have a feeling my sister is going to be angry because I have a feeling he will refuse to lay down for her when naptime comes. 
Grrrrr....what have a done.  HELP!

[andibig]

TBH when Sasha has/is ill I do what I have to do to help her sleep and undo the AP when she is completely better.bearing in mind it also takes about 2 weeks for her to get back on track after she has recovered.
If he is still ill then especially if its an ear infection I'd wait till he is completely better b4 attempting any sleep training.