Hourly NW for an 8 1/2 month old

[TessaH]

Please help!  I have an 8 1/2 month old son who has never really slept more than 4 hours at a stretch (although once he did 8 hours but never repeated this!).  In the last week though he has adopted a habitat of waking up hourly.  I leave him for a few minutes to see if he'll go back to sleep on his own but he never does so I pick him up, give him a rock and a shh/pat and put him back in his cot dozy but not completely asleep.  He always rolls onto his side to sleep and either goes to sleep straight away or I do shh/pat on his back for a few minutes until he sleeps.  This whole process never takes more than 10 minutes and he always goes back in his cot without too much fuss.  I thought perhaps he was waking himself up suddenly by rolling onto his back from his side so have tried sleeping him on his front - but this makes no difference.

As the night wears on and I get more tired after getting up on an hourly basis to repeat this pattern I resort to bf him to sleep (because I get to lie down rather than having to stand up and rock him) and then finally to leaving him in bed with me. I know these are the wrong things to do but I'm just so knackered I'll just do anything to get some sleep. 

His normal 'routine' is:
8am breakfast (not very hungry due to excessive feeding at night)
10.30ish sleep (length really varies between 40min and 2 hours)
12/12.30 lunch
1/1.30pm milk (either bf or formula)
2.30/3.00 snack (usually yogurt or fruit and sometimes some formula if he hasn't had much earlier)
3.00ish sleep (again varies depending on length of earlier sleep)
6.00/6.30 dinner
7.30 bath
8.00/8.30 milk (bf to sleep)

The hourly NW all started about a week ago when I introduced stage 3 formula to suppliment the breastfeeding.  He has taken formula before so i don't think he's allergic to it or anything.  On the days he goes to nursery he gets formula milk during the day instead of breast milk and he doesn't alway take very much.  However, other days he'll get a bf and then in the evening after tea he's sometimes taken 4 floz of formula and then had his bath followed by bf.  Even when I think he's consumed loads of calories during the day he still wakes during the night.  I realise I should probably try and get him to drink more milk during the day but its a vicious circle because in order to do that he needs to have less at night. 

Please please help.  I really need sleep as I'm back to work now.  At the moment he sleeps in the same room as us but I'm considering moving him to his own room a.s.a.p.  If I do this though, I don't think it will stop him waking up - just means that I have to walk further before I get to him!

Tessa

[Bryony]

Tessa - hugs! Sleep deprivation is horrible and it must be especially tough if you are in work.

A few questions:

- how does he go to sleep for naps?  Can he get to sleep on his own or does he need some help from you?  I note that you BF him to sleep at night time - this may well mean that he does not know how to get to sleep on his own so when he comes into a light sleep at the end of each sleep cycle (ie every hour) he half wakes up and doesn't know how to get back to sleep.

- how many hours daytime sleep is he getting and what are his A times?

- when he wakes in the night, what is he doing (chatting?  Screaming?  Grizzling?)

- when did he start nursery?

Sorry for all the questions, just trying to think what might be going on here!

Bryony

[TessaH]

Hi Bryony
He can go to sleep on his own for naps.  At nursery they put him down awake and he apparently grizzles for little bit and then goes to sleep.  At home, because I'm always dashing in and out (we're in the middle of building a house so I'm pretty busy) he sleeps in the car, or in his buggy, and if i do manage to get him in his cot he doesn't need a BF but I usually shh/pat him until he's calm and dozy and then put him down.  Then he'll roll over onto his side and sleep straight away.  Its taken me ages just to get to that milestone as he used to wake up the minute I put him in his cot and start screaming.  To get to that stage I would put him down on his back and when he started having a screaming fit I'd flip him onto his front and shh/pat him until he calmed down - it seemed to stop him flailing about so much and working himself up.  Now I can put him in his cot on his back and calm him by rolling him on his side and doing shh/pat.

When he's at nursery his sleep seems to vary - sometimes they say he has 2 sleeps just 30-40 mins each and other times he'll sleep for up to 1 1/2 in the morning and then maybe another hour in the afternoon.  When he's at home with me he tends to have about 2 1/2 - 3 hours a day in total, but as I said it varies according to what I'm doing.  When it comes to sleeping for longer periods it doesn't seem to make a difference how long he's slept during the day - the only difference it makes is how quickly he goes down in the evening.

His A times are between 8.30 and 10.30, 12.30 and 2.30/3.00 and then between about 4.00 through to bedtime at 8.00/8.30.  But quite often he's tired at about 5 and if I'm picking him up from nursery he'll have a 10min sleep in the car on the way home.

When he wakes in the night, he starts by grizzling and then if I leave it - as I've tried to do - he just goes into crying and then full blown screaming.

He started nursery 3 full days a week at the start of October - and loves it!

Thanks for you quick reply and I'll look forward to you advice!

Tessa

[Bryony]

Hi Tessa

Hmm, I think there are a few possibilities:

- the BF to sleep being a prop at night time. Can you start putting him down awake for bedtime so that he learns to go to sleep on his own?  It's great he can get to sleep on his own in nursery so he does know what to do!
- being overtired at bedtime due to that last A time being really long. The previous A times are quite short though, so you might want to see if he can handle longer A times earlier in the day so that his naps are moved a bit later. The average A time for his age would be 3-3.5hrs although there is a lot of variability.  Although many people find they need a shorter A time just before bed to prevent OT.  Do you think he could handle longer A times?  You would need to push them really slowly.  2.5-3hrs naps a day sounds about right - think 3hrs is about average.  The A time is the time from waking up to being asleep again - ie it includes the feed.

- because he is used to having feeds at night he may also be taking less in the day, which leads to him being hungry at night - so you would want to wean off the night feeds gradually so that he gets used to making it up during the day.

What do you think?

Bryony

[TessaH]

Thanks - I'll give that a go.  But what really mystifies me is why he used to go for about 4 hours and then wake up for a feed, but now seems to be waking up and crying every hour.  Its almost like he's colicky again - for example, the last couple of nights he's had a BF and gone to bed, then woken after half an hour and I've burped him and then he's settled down again (albeit only for another hour or so).  I do always wind him after a feed but he doesn't alway burp.  Maybe I'm just clutching at straws?  Why do you think he's now waking up every hour instead of going 3-4 hours like he did until just a week ago?  I could almost handle the 3-4 hours but this is just ridiculous.  And because I go to him when he starts crying properly, instead of leaving him to CIO, I get criticised - I'll scream if I hear "rod for your own back" one more time   
But I think you're right about the very long A time just before bed.  By the time I got my LO fed and bathed, he's so knackered that he always fall asleep on the breast.  Tonight though, I woke him up after the BF and after lying in his cot a few minutes he went from happy to meltdown so rapidly and was then inconsolable.  I tried shh/pat but had to resort to another BF to calm him down - arrgghh I just keep doing everything wrong!
Anyway, I'll try extending the A time during the day as suggested and will attempt to resist more BF tonight (well maybe just the one...?)
Thanks for all your advice
Tessa

[Bryony]

Hi Tessa

yes - they change!  Just when you think you have it sussed, they grow up and things change. A lot of people hit problems around this age!  In terms of putting him down awake last night - it will take him time to get used to it - he's used to being BF to sleep, right? He's thinking, nooo, this is not how I go to sleep, I go to sleep with a boob in my mouth    You have to be persistant.  There is a great link to a gradual withdrawal method when you are used to BF to sleep, can't remember if it's in the Props forum or the General Sleep forum.   I'm on holiday right now and don't have all my links with me but let me know if you can't find it and I will have a look.

does he still respond to shh/pat?  Some don't at this age and so you  have to use PU/PD instead - but if he still responds to shh/pat then use that.

Hang in there - sleep training takes some time and persistance but you will get there 

Bryony

[TessaH]

Hi Bryony,
Yes, used to being BF to sleep, but only accidentally because he's so knackered by this time that he can't help but fall asleep!  So I tend to think that you're right about the long A time before bed and he must be overtired.  I'll try adjusting the routine and bring everything forward so that he goes to bed earlier.  Doesn't help that he's got a cold at the moment (although this problem manifested itself before the cold started), and that he's got 2 upper teeth coming through.

He does respond to shh/pat unless he gone into meltdown and then its either a case of trying to rock him to sleep or resorting to BF to sleep to try and calm him down.

I'll try to have a go at this Gentle Removal Plan and let you know how it goes.  Have been avidly reading the other post to get ideas and its heartening to hear that my LO is not the only baby in the world who has sleep problems!

Thanks for all the help so far - particularly when you're on holiday!

Tessa

[Bryony]

Let us know how it goes!

Yeah teeth and colds don't help....  my LO is all stuffed up with a cold at the moment too 

Bryony

[TessaH]

Hi Bryony
Just a quick update with the NW - I have had SOME success but not quite there yet.  Here's how it went yesterday...
My LO had morning sleep of 2 hours (11-1pm), afternoon sleep of 1 hour (3.30-4.30pm) at nursery, then home and I bought his evening's routine forward by half an hour (to try and reduce the long A time he was having last thing).  So after his bath he had a BF at 7.30 and was still awake at the end of it.  I gave him a good burping read him a book with the lights dimmed and then put him in his cot wide where he was still very happy.  He started gurning a bit so I did shh/pat just a couple of times as his sleep cue and then switched out all the lights and left the room.  My idea was to leave him for no more than 10 mins unless he started properly crying in which case I would intervene and calm him down.  However, after just 5 mins the crying stopped and he went to sleep on his own.  He then stayed asleep (where before he had been waking after just 1 hour) - so at 11pm I gave him a DF and he slept through until 4am.  This is a miracle considering he had been waking hourly before that! 

Anyway, sadly it all went downhill after - after his feed was finished (about 4.30am) I put him back in his cot still awake, but I think with his terrible cold he's struggling to get comfy so he spends a while fidgeting and crying (again not properly) until he gets settled.  Last night it was taking a while for him to get settled and my DH was getting grumpy  so I resorted to rocking him to sleep and then putting him down.  An hour later he wakes up again and so it went downhill from there...

So basically I think he settles much better if no-one is in the room - because if I'm there he just cries more to be picked up.  Also, I think you were so right about the overtired thing, if he gets to meltdown stage then unfortunately the only way to settle him is to feed him to sleep.  Anyway, I'm not counting my chickens yet - but I think the way forward is to put him in his own room so that at 4 in the morning I can leave him to cry a short time to see if he'll re-settle himself.  What do you think?  If anyone else has any thoughts on this I'd be glad to hear them.

Fingers crossed!

[Bryony]

Wow, sounds great! Sounds like real progress!!! Especially considering he has a cold 

Do you think he needs a feed at 4am?   Once his cold is better you'll probably want to start weaning him off that one - there is a great thread about how to do this in the FAQs - let me know if you can't find it and I will have a look for you.   

In terms of getting him back to sleep at 4am - if he's just grizling a bit and fussing then I would leave him to see if he can settle himself.   however if he starts a real "I need you" cry then in my view you have to go in - but try using shh/pat rather than rocking as it wil be easier for him to learn to do it himself if he is in his cot rather than in your arms.

But really - I think you have made real progress!  There will be ups and downs and most people get a regression somehwere but I really think you are on the right track. 

And yes I'd be interested in what others think too - any other thoughts?  Anything we've missed?

Bryony

[TessaH]

Hi Bryony
At the moment he has a proper feed at 4am but there have been just a couple of times where he's gone 8 hours without a feed at night so I know he can do it.  Would REALLY like to know how to wean him off this 4am feed so will have a look a the FAQs as suggested.  I've tried offering water but he's not interested, and as I said he takes a full feed so must be hungry.
Anyway, I'll keep you posted on progress (hopefully) tonight.  My plan is to do the same at 4am as I do at the start of the night -i.e. listen outside door for up to 10 mins to see if he can settle himself and if not then I'll try shh pat as suggested rather than rocking. 
Thanks again
tessa

[Bryony]

Sounds good - keep us posted 

Bryony

[TessaH]

Hi Bryony
SUCCESS - well sort of!  Last couple of nights Olly has slept 7.30pm to 8am without a feed.  The 'sort of' is because he wakes about an hour after I put him down and starts crying.  I have tried leaving him 5-10 mins but keeps crying, so eventually I go in and comfort him.  But it seems that he goes into meltdown then. Completely beside himself and cries for about an hour or longer last night.  I tried giving him some milk but he just took a few fluid oz and then rejected it. Don't think he's hungry.  That brings me onto the next problem.   For the last 2 days he has refused the breast - so I can't comfort feed him either.  The last time he took it was 3 nights ago - he had a really big feed and then because he was so blocked up and had obviously swallowed a lot of flegm he did a massive projectile vomit.  I then gave him the other breast which he took and kept down, but since that time every time I offer him a BF he bites my nipple instead .
Do you have an advice to offer - firstly on this waking at 8.30 and screaming for an hour or more (should I just leave him and not go in at all?), and secondly on the breastfeeding.  If it is the case that he just is ready to be weaned then I'm happy with that. I guess it just feels that I'm ending on a bad note...
Thanks
Tessa

[Bryony]

Hi Tessa

I'm afraid I can't think of any advice on the BF front - I am no expert here - why not post on the BF forum?  they will know the relevant questions to ask - it sounds too early to wean to me,  but as I say I am nooo expert.

In terms of the wakings - waking an hour after going to sleep is almost always overtired and/or overstimulated.  Can you put him to bed earlier?  Is he getting a good wind-down before bed?  How much daytime sleep is he getting?  My money is on OT.  If he is crying like he needs help then don't leave him - it's hard to calm an OT baby but I use shh/pat  - does Oly still respond to this?

Bryony

[TessaH]

Thanks Bryony
I'll try the BF forum.  In the meantime I've just had to keep expressing and hope for the best.

The sleep thing seems to have sorted itself out now.  Last night I gave him a good long wind down before bed and encouraged him to drink as much milk as possible from his beaker so that I was sure if he woke it wasn't because of hunger.  Anyway, he was much calmer when he went to bed and slept from 8pm through to 7.30 this morning - just with a minor wake up at 12.30 because he was too hot (so I took off one of his blankets and comforted him and he went straight back to sleep).  Cross fingers that this continues - I just never believed he would go from waking hourly just a week ago to sleeping through the night.  Hopefully it will give some comfort to all those experiencing NW problems...
Thanks for all your help Bryony.
Tessa x