help with 5month old sleep during day (and night)

[elliejane]

Hi

This is my first time posting here so bear with me. I go told of your website by a friend who uses it. I have a little boy 5month old on Wed who is a happy baby but like being carried about a lot. My problem is he does not sleep much and for past 2 months or so being only sleeping 40 or 45mins a time for naps. On Sat it was even worse was 30mins a time. He is bottle fed and also has reflux but I do not think that is why he does not sleep (might be). At nights he sometimes sleeps all night and other times (more often now) wakes up in night. I guess I want help with both

1) How to get him to sleep longer than 45mins a time
2) How to stop him waking at night

He sleeps in a pram during day as I cannot get him to sleep in his cot (have not tried very hard to be honest but know it will be a struggle). He goes to sleep normally within 1 minute of pushing and sometimes does not even need this. Sometimes I can get him back to sleep if I get him quick enough when he wakes at 40mins for another 40mins or so but not always. He is more often than not wide awake and happy on waking. HE sleeps 3 times a day so probaby just over 2hrs a day which isnot a lot sometimes even less

For bedtime he goes down ok sometimes falls asleep on his bottle other times he is ok. Was sleeping 9pm till 8am all of Nov and Dec until Xmas Eve thenit all changed now he goes 9am till 430am or 5am if lucky. But other times he wakes once or twice a night sometimes self settles and other times I need to go to his room and pat his tummy. He then sleeps for 5mins then wakes and I pat it againthis can go on for about 30/45 mins till he falls asleep. Getting tired. He is on one solid meal a day (told by 2 doctors to wean due to his large milk intake and reflux). This is normally a mixture of veg and rice. HE is also very windy and I think this is what wakes him in night as he farts a lot and burps when picked up

He will not evne sleep more than 45mins in a car which I know is unheard  off. Can anyone suggest anything. Was going to do controlled crying to get him to sleep in cot but was going to wait till he was 6mths old . But notsure if I should try that or not.

Ellie

[deckchariot]

Ellie -

Welcome to BW!!  You'll find some great support and help on this site!!!  First, let me encourage you NOT to try controlled crying.  You will not find advocates of that on this website.  That's one of the things I really love about BW, it's really about teaching your baby, not just leaving them to cry.  I don't know how much you know about BW, but we like to have our lo's on a routine called EASY - Eat, Activity, Sleep, and then time for You.  Do you have any kind of routine now for your lo?   Could you post what a "typical" day looks like in terms of eating, sleeping, and activity time?  Generally, when EASY babies are having 45 min naps, it means their A time needs to be a bit longer.  Also, helping your lo to learn to go to sleep on his own in his crib will certainly help with both naps and night sleeps.  Here are some links you may want to read about EASY and independent sleep:

Average A times
teaching sleep to infants 6+ mos
pat/shh vs pu/pd
starting EASY at 4mos or older

HTH
michelle

[elliejane]

Hi

thanks for your reply. I have ordered a baby whisperer book as do not know much about EASY. Just basics will read your links

Do not have an exact typical day as it depends on when my son wakes and if he was fed at 5am or not.

Last night was excellent night he went down at about 815 and woke 5mins later an dI picked him up as he is bother with wind a lot he burped and went back down same happened 20mins later then slept all night till 730 this am. That has not happened since Xmas Eve though so it was probably a one off.  Today and yesterday I go thim back to sleep after his pm nap but took about 10mins

Today was not typical day but I will post both to let you see difference

Normal

Wake 5am feed then right back to sleep till about 730/830
Activity 830 till 10
Eat 10
Activity for approx 45mins
Sleep 1045 till 1130 approx
Activity until about 1
Feed 1pm
Activity again till about 2
Sleep from 2 till 245 then wakes up and cannot get him back down on most day
Activity from 2.45 till 4 or if he goes down again on rare times activity from 330 till 4
Feed 4
Sleep for 30mins about 5pm not all the time and starting to drop this sleep
Feed 6pm small amount
Bath and Bed 8pm


Today

Woke 730am then eat
Activity until 930
930 sleep for 45mins
Activity until next bottle at 1030
Eat 1030
Awake and activity until 130
130 feed
Sleep on his bottle today for 45mins
woke at 215 for 10misn back to sleep till 3. 15pm
4pm feed
Went to collect other son from nursery so in pram until 5ish as long walk
5 solisd
Tried to get to sleep at 515 no luck
Small amount of milk at 615
Still no sleep and bed will be 8 or earlier

As you can see no day really same. He never falls asleep on bottle today was exception as I wanted to feed him before his sleep to try to get long sleep

Normally he goes 2hrs to 2 30 mins between sleep but feeds every 3hrs or less even. He  is big baby and addicted to milk

Need to break habit of him sleeping in pram and also try to reduce his milk in take. I am weaning him as was advised to do so by 2 doctors and believe tracy said ok to wean if large baby in some cases.He is 5mths now

Do I need to sort out milk and weaning routine first . His milk feeds are normally pretty set at 7am , 10, 1, 4  (small one at 6) then 8 so happy enough with them but it is fitting sleep round them as he feeds a lot

Feel bit of a disaster as not in a set routine for him each day apart from feeds and get him to sleep pretty much after 2hrs apart from late pm

Ellie

[deckchariot]

It actually looks like you have more of a routine than you may think you do - so that's great!  With his feeds at 7, 10, 1, 4,, 6 and 8, it looks like he's on what we'd call a 3 hr EASY with cluster feeding (the last 3 feeds being closer together).  Normally by 5 mos, most of our lo's are moving towards a 4 hr EASY, but you've said he's a big baby and eats a lot of milk - how many ounces is he taking at each feed?  Would it be possible to add a bit extra to some feeds and space them further apart? 

It looks like he's napping for 45 min - that generally indicates being undertired - he's tired enough to fall asleep, but not tired enough to take a really good nap.  So instead of keeping him up for 2 hrs at a time, maybe try pushing that a bit to 2 hr 15 min - I'd keep the last 30 min or so really low key - cuddling, playing with one quiet toy, reading a book etc. to help him make the transition from play time to sleep time.  Perhaps you could try for a routine a bit like this:

E - 7:00
A - whatever you'd normally do until 8:45, then low key play time
S - 9:15 (start a wind down at 9:00)

E - 10:30
A -
S - 12:45

E - 2
A
S 4:15

E 5:30
A - low key
E - 7:30 - do bedtime routine

That's a 3.5 hr EASY, but moving straight from 3 to 4 may be a bit much for him.  As you add in solids, that would happen during the A time, and then you could start moving towards a 4 hr EASY, where he'd have milk feeds at 7, 11, 3, and 7.  You could still put in a brief cluster feed at 5 if he needs it.

BW also recommends having a wind down routine - with my dd, we change her diaper, close her blinds - and say "night night outside", read a story, rock a bit, sing a song, and then into her crib.  Since your ds isn't used to sleeping in his crib, you will probably need to use pu/pd to help him learn how to sleep on his own, in his own bed (it will be hard, but there's good support on the pu/pd board here).  Check out the links I posted, for some info on how to do that.

Does that make sense?  I know it's all new to you, but we'll do whatever we can to help out.  There's lots of good info here on the boards.

michelle

[elliejane]

Thanks very much. He is taking full 8oz in his bottle and I even struggle to get him to last 3hrs never mind 3.5 though.I think until he is established on solids I will not get longer than 3hrs between feeds. Also he is waking at 5am again this morning (and heaps in night last night as well but that is different problem). What should I do with naps when he wakes at 5am as he goes back to sleep till 8 then fed at 930 today to try to get me back on track for feeds. Trying him down in his cot just now at 1030 but he is just screaming and I am not sure whether to do pat/shs or pupd for him or resort to pram pushing again for now!!!

Another issue I have with is different one is that he wakes a lot in night with flatulence and wind and cries not big but enough to wake him. I do pat/ssh and he goes back to sleep very quick but just wakes again 10mins later farting again crying this can go on for up to 2hrs some nights. Not sure how to stop the flatuelence. I think it is volume of milk he drinks a day but if I cut bakc on milk he wakes starving so cannot win. Any suggestions or anywhere to post

he is more harder baby than my first one. feel very down sometimes over it all as feel cannot get him to sleep during day for any lenght of time and all other mums have babies sleeping 7 till 7 and hours inthe day as well!!!!!!

thanks for being a help

Whilst I am posting this his cries turned into more like a moan and just checked and he is asleep in his cot. (first time ever in the day) will probably wake in 5mins though!!!

Ellie   

[deckchariot]

Ellie -

Sorry I've  been away, although I did post, but my most recent post doesn't seem to be here...grr.....

ok, so he takes 48 oz of formula a day???  WOW!  That is a lot!  When do you plan to start solids?  I chatted around on the moderator board to see if anyone had any suggestions, because if he's needing to eat every 3 hrs, it does make it impossible for you to move to a 3.5 hr or 4 hr EASY.  But his 45 min naps are indicating to me that he needs to stay up longer....it seems like a "no win", but we will figure something out.

Would it be possible to add an ounce to his bottles so he'd get 9 oz in each bottle instead of 8?  That might make it possible to move towards a 3.5 hr EASY.  He'd then get 5 bottles instead of 6 for a total of 45 oz.  A 10 oz bottle seems really big to me, but maybe you could even try the last one at night and/or the first one of the day at 10 oz.  We really need to try to stretch him between feeds if he's going to be able to nap longer than 45 min.

Also, in terms of the gas problem at night - how long has he had that problem?  Could it be a reaction to the formula?  Have you asked your doctor about it?  Have you tried either gripe water or Mylecon drops to help with the gas?  You'd give that to him before the bedtime feed.

If he wakes early for a feed but then goes right back to sleep, I would try to start the 3.5 hr EASY from the next time he wakes up - so if he wakes at 8, start the routine then - you feed him, then try to keep him up for 2 hrs before starting the wind down and work from there.  You can move to a 3 hr EASY in the late afternoon to get him to bed earlier and see how the next day goes.

When you do the wind down and put him down for his nap, if he's crying, I'd do pu/pd to help him get to sleep.  If he's had bad naps all day, do whatever it takes to get one good nap in before bedtime in the hopes that he'll sleep better at night and you can start fresh the next day.  If you decide to do pu/pd, the mod over on that board said to go ahead and post there and you'll get lots of pu/pd help!

I would also suggest posting on the bottle feeding boards about the amount of milk he's taking and just see what other moms are doing with their lo's who take that much milk but are ready to be up longer than a 3 hr feed block allows. 

I'm sorry this is so challenging.  Hang in there!!!!

[elliejane]

Hi

Thanks for reply. I have started solids but my HV said to really try to up the volume now of solids due to amount of milk he is taking. Got Tracy book at weekend and she also says if by 5mth still going on 3hrs easy to introduce solids. Guess it will take time though so maybe I should post back here when sorted that a bit. Also need to sort out this wind or reflux as it is waking him in night a lot. I am coming to think he is maybe the type of baby who will only sleep 45 to 1hr max as he very rarely is tired after waking up and even in a car if he wakes after 45mins he never goes back to sleep

I am going to wait to see HV and doctor this week then post back. My night time waking are not the worst issue but I also have to ge thim sleeping in his cot during day even it if is for 30/45mins at time as he will not get a pram when he starts nursery in summer to get him to sleep and he will get too big

Such  a bad habit

Will post soon thanks so much for your time.

Ellie

[deckchariot]

Hang in there Ellie!!!  I'll wait to hear from you....it does sound like you are making progress at least in getting him in his crib!