napping

[Freddymom]

My lo is 3.5 months old. I have read the books and am watching as best I can for the signs of tiredness. I have a two year old also and feel constantly torn between giving him enough attention and spending enough time with my 3.5 month old. Plus I am having a hard time getting my lo to nap. I could spend the entire day trying to get him down but I have a two year old also...thenn of course he gets so overtied he is really not able to nap and I am feeling terrible.Any suggestions?

[deckchariot]

Do you have him on any kind of an EASY routine?  Could you post it?  Hang in there.  The 3-4 mos time is a major time of transition.  It will get better!

[Freddymom]

Thanks for the advice. I hit a button on my computer and lsot my last reply and it does not seem to have posted. If it did and I am being repetitive I appologize. I do not really have him on an EASY program as I have found it very difficult with my two year old to get that going and be consistent. I am still not even entirely certain how long he can stay up without getting overtired. He does not go to sleep without crying at my attempted nap times and I find it hard to be in his room for lengthy periods of time trying to get him to sleep with my two year old running around. This is my biggest source of frustration/guilt. I feel I should be doing better in this are and feel guilty I do not have more time with my two year old. Some days I don't seem to be doing the best for either of them. Today is another day and I will try again! I appreciate the responses.

[deckchariot]

I'm sorry you're having such a rough go!  Hang in there!  Here are some links that may be helpful:

typical A times

introducing EASY to a 2nd child

sleep training with a toddler around

I'll be back to write more later....my dd just woke up screaming.....

michelle

[Freddymom]

Thank you for the links. I am still confused as to what to focus on first at times. I know putting him down already asleep is not the right thing to do but at this point since he is getting NO day sleep it seems better than nothign and then I think maybe if I can figure out when he will sleep and get him more rested I can work on the slef soothing. At this oint I think overstimulation might be a possibility also as with my first son between his mornign wak and first nap we never even left his room. I fed, we read a few stories then lay on the floor with some snimals until I saw the yawn. But how do I do that with son number two around??

[deckchariot]

In terms of what to work on first - the first nap of the day is usually the easiest, so I'd start with that one.  You probably want to try to have him down for that first nap about 1 hr 45 min after he wakes in the morning.  So he would get up, you'd feed him, then some low key A time - he actually might be content to watch you play with your toddler.  Then take him up to do a brief wind down (do you swaddle?).  Can you leave your toddler with a some quiet toys or a video in another room while you go put the baby down?

[Freddymom]

I can do that and today my husband actually took my toddler out. I got my lo up, fed him and after about one hour I began trying to put him down. I read to him, tried nursing him finally just laid him down. Wasn't working so I came back downstairs for about 5-10 minutes returned to the nursery  tried nursing- no go laid down, covered snug and put on mobile fussed for1-2 minutes currently quiet- 10:27am- fingers crossed!! - No go-woke again cried harder tried to soothe but ended up nursing and just laid him down at 11:00am- woke up again at 11:30.

[deckchariot]

oh, I'm so sorry today was rough.  At least your dh was able to take your toddler.  Have you been nursing him to sleep regularly?  Also, in terms of a wind down, he may need a bit more time to transition.  So if he gets up at 7,(I don't know what time he gets up, just using that) feed him and have some low key A time then , at about 8:30 (no later than that, maybe earlier), head to his room.  Change his diaper, swaddle him (I still swaddled my dd until she was over 4 mos old), close the blinds/curtains in his room, then you could sit and read to him and rock a bit.  Have you tried pat/shh?  I would start the shh/pat on your shoulder and keep doing it til he's calm (but not asleep), then take him to the crib and lay him down and keep doing the pat/shh til he's asleep.  In the beginning, we would keep pat/shhing through the first 20 min sleep cycle just to make sure dd was good and asleep.  It's really time consuming in the beginning, and depending on how your toddler does playing alone, you may not be able to do all the pat/shh, but if you at least start it with the wind down, that should help.

Hang in there, I know this stage is really tough.

[Freddymom]

Thank you so much for the feedback.I guess a lot of the problem is inconsistency and bad habits. He was a great sleeper until 4 weeks. Then he started fighting the naps. I remember the very day- I laid him fown like always and no go this was late morining early afternoon he never gave inand slept until after 10:30 pm. From there on I lost control of any routine I had due to the demands of my two year old, the value of sleep and no crying and my own fatigue/lack of tenacity. Today was a bit better he finally had a 30 min nap around 12:30 then I let him sleep on my lap after nursing while my toddler was napping as I have once again broken down and thought maybe if I can at least get him rested up a bit any way at all we can have a better go at sleep training although I realize I will have to be undoing bad habits.

[Freddymom]

ok so we had a pretty decent night. Up at 6:00 am back to bed at 7:00 up at 9:00am. Two yawns right after getting up at 9:00. Fed him after another yawn and fussing started at 9:30. Started to go to sleep but before I could take him to his room he woke up. Tried to soothe him up there he just got more wide awake- the shades make it very dark so that is not the issue. Tried just laying him down he was content but not asleep for about 1-15 minutes then got increasingly unhappy. I went to get him when he started crying as the past few days I tried the shh/pat at this point with his becoming really overtired being the only result.
Came back downstairs, unloaded dishwasher and got sncak for toddler. (maybe 10-15 minutes) decided to try again as it was nearing the 1 hour mark. Cried when I tried to nurse, struggled and cried when I tried shhpat, humming and rocking...When I lay him down he cries immediately now and fights nursing and cries if I just put him on the floor or in his chair.....honestly!!!!!!!!!!!I am really trying to stay posirive but I want to scream!!!!!!!!! Thanks for letting me do it quietly.

[Freddymom]

1:49pm and still no nap:( Am I starting to soon or too late? why won't he sleep? Iwisj this would click. We are heading to Miami March 3 fo a week for business and I hate to think how that wil monkey wrench an already messed up schedule.

[deckchariot]

Hang in there.....I know it's really hard when your lo doesn't nap.  Some of it really is developmental.  Babies brains sort out day and night sleep a bit differently.  The part the controls night sleep develops first (0-3 mos), the part that controls day sleep develops later (3-6 mos), so it's unfortunately totally normal for him to struggle with naps at his age.  In the first 4 weeks, most babies just sleep a lot - so it's not he knew how to nap and has now forgotten.  You're doing a great job, you're just exhausted.

I would say try to be as consistent as possible with that very first nap to get the day started off right.  When he woke at 6, did you feed him and have a bit of A time before you put him back to bed at 7?  I would do that same routine tomorrow.  It's not unusual for the first A time of the day to be the shortest.  Plus, he probably is OT from so many days of no napping.  So keep that same routine for tomorrow.  Then when he's up at 9, feed him, then have some low key A time.  Even though he was yawning right away, I doubt he was ready for another nap by 9:30.  It's not unusual for lo's to get very sleepy after they nurse (the hormones in the milk), which is why he was nodding off in your arms.  Go ahead and try to keep him up til at least 10 - even longer if you can, before you start the wind down.

With pat/shh - we did it every single nap time and every bedtime at first - even if she wasn't crying.  It may disturb him now because it's not a regular part of his routine.  There are some really good posts about pat/shh in the FAQ sections on the sleep boards - I would check those out.  We started it in the rocking chair and continued it in the crib - whether or not she was crying.  If she cried, we just pat/shhed louder.  She did eventually calm down and go to sleep.  He may be getting confused because you leave and come back and he cries and isn't sure quite what to do.  If you can try to stay with him til he falls asleep, I think that will really help him to figure things out.  I know it's hard with a toddler around. 

You can always come here to vent and have a little scream.  hang in there.

[MJMom]

I noticed that you keep mentioning that you are trying to nurse him before putting him down and that he is fighting it?  It is likely because he really is not hungry.  If pt/sh does not seem to be working, perhaps try something else but similar vein like rubbing him and sshhhing.  Can you tell if it seems to be the ptt'ing or the shh'ing that is bothering him?  Also, do you have any white noise in his room like a ocean sounds, a fan, air purifier, etc.  This can help soothe as well as tune out sounds from your toddler. 

At 3.5 months, typical A times are about 1hr 15- 1hr 30 min with the first A time always being the shortest.  Could it be that you are putting him down a bit too early for his second A time? I know with the fussing it gets difficult to determine what is really going on. 

Could he have stomach pain or gas? 

Are you able to get any other naps in the day at all?

Also, are you still swaddling your little guy?

((HUGS!))  Good luck!  I know it is frustrating!!  All babies don't follow the "book" exactly.  In fact most of them don't! 
Can you post what yesterday looked like for you?

[Freddymom]

HI
WE had no power yesterday so it was a little off but hooray we did get one small nap- 30-40 min. I started after about 1 hour A time as I was not 100% sure (15 minnutes) when he woke up- no monitor jsut mommy ears. Then due to the cold after not getting him at 2nd nap attempt we went out and he slept tiny bit in car. In the pm he fell alseep on my lap and I left him there again due to the sold. Today I will try your advice as I was thinking the same thing about the A time being too short- I am just so afraid to get him overtired these days too. The crying for nursing seems to happen when he is overtired and needs to just be crabby for a bit then he can be nursed by me or - he will succumb to daddy's shh/pat/hum!!" Unfortunately daddy is not always here. We are also working on getting his bedtime earlier. Gotta run they are both up

[deckchariot]

Sorry you were without power...hard to stay on any kind of routine without any heat.  Can you post what your routine looked like today with the different A time?

The crying for nursing when he's OT, could actually be just a cry for comfort, not for food - especially if daddy is able to comfort him without any food.