No idea what's going on..help!!

[sensfan]

Hello all. I'm posting this here and in the breastfeeding section because I'm not sure if this is a sleep problem, or as Tracy said, ultimately an eating problem. My son is 4.5 months old, and he has ALWAYS slept well at night. He was on EASY from about 3 weeks old. He went right to a 3-hour routine, but I continued tanking him up past 8 weeks because he seemed to need it, and frankly I was afraid to change anything that might affect his night sleep. Very early on he was giving us a 6 hour stretch, and by 3 months he was sleeping through until at least 7 am. That's when the trouble started. He got sick (nasty poo 5 times a day) for about 3 weeks. His feeds got MUCH faster (10-15 min.) but he often still seemed a bit fussy, and we didn't know if this was because he was sick, or if I was having supply problems or what. I did supplement with formula a few times because I was worried about him getting dehydrated. Then his naps started getting much shorter. After double-checking Tracy's latest book, I realized he was probably ready to stay up longer and made the switch to a 3.5 hour routine. This meant dropping a feed (from 7 to 6). Almost immediately his naps improved, but from that night on he's started waking up at least once a night, if not 3-4 times. I don't think he's waking because of hunger, since he either settles himself or he drops back off when we give him his soother. But I can't ignore that this started when I dropped a feed. It's been over 2 weeks now, it's not getting better, and I'm getting half the sleep I used to. Anyone have any suggestions?

Here's his routine:
E 7:30
A 7:50 (sometimes earlier or later, feed length varies)
S 9:30
E 11:00
A 11:20 (sometimes earlier or later, feed length varies)
S 1:00
E 2:30
A 2:50 (sometimes earlier or later, feed length varies)
S 4:30
E 6:00
A 6:20 (sometimes earlier or later, feed length varies)
S 7:30-8:00 (catnap)
E around 9:00, and back to bed after, usually down by 10:00
Dream feed by 11:30

[Lisa1022]

Welcome to the 2-hour sleep club!!  We know how you feel and send you lots of support and love! 

The NW might not be related to your LO getting sick at all.  It seems like a bunch of us ar having the same issue.  At 3.5 or 4 months, our babies, who were generally good sleepers, started having 2 to 3 nightwakings and wanted to be fed.  We're trying to work out why.

I tried putting my little girl to bed at 7 instead of 9.  I don't know that it's helped her NW, but it means I can go to bed earlier if I need to!

And I am not expert, but I've been reading posts long enough to know that someone will tell you that 11:30 is on the late side for a DF.  I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but the general idea is that anytime after 11 is a nighfeed and is disruptive to sleep.

[Bryony]

Hi there sensfran and welcome to the boards!  I thnk this is mainly a NW issue so we'll delete the one in BF if that's OK - otherwise it will get confusing with two lots of people responding to your post. I've asked one of the BF mods to take a look at your post over here though just in case there is any other BF advice she can give!

Now if he's often settling himself that's great - and doesn't really count as a NW in my books (it only counts if I have to get out of bed  ) 

the other times - you say that he settles with a dummy. Does he need it to go to sleep? I am wondering if this might be the issue as many LOs get dependent on the dummy around that age.

the other thing that strikes me is that his bedtime is really late - most people aim for a 12hr day and a 12hr night, so I would work towwards getting him to bed around 7:30pm if he usually starts the day at 7:30am. He may not be getting enough night time sleep, which is making him a bit overtired, which means he jolts awake each sleep cycle (usually an hour). How long are his naps? I wasn't sure from your routine

Bryony

[Samuel's mum]

I would agree that self-settling isn't really a 'nightwaking' as all babies rouse into different levels of sleep and transition between sleep cycles in different ways.

If these were hunger wakings you would expect him not to self-settle and even if he was to eventually settle with the dummy/paci it wouldn't 'last long' and he'd be awake again within an hour.

When you dropped from 6 to 7 feeds he should have compensated himself - 6 is ample at 4 months.

I would focus on routine and bedtime issues Good Luck

[sensfan]

I do usually give him the soother when I put him down, but I don't know that he needs it...he often drops it before he falls asleep (and he's normally asleep within 5 min.). His naps on average are an hour and a half, sometimes a little shorter and sometimes longer. The catnap is usually about 30 min. My only concern with an earlier bedtime at this point is, as I said, this all began when I dropped a feed when I moved away from a 3 hour schedule. An earlier bedtime would mean dropping another feed. If I was bottle feeding I wouldn't worry, I'd just up the ozs. But the breastfeeding had me REALLY uncertain about what he's getting. What I've been thinking I'd try tonight is to move the last 2 feeds closer together (6:00 and then 8:00/8:30)and try to have him down by 9:00 or 9:30.

Samuel's mom: So are you thinking that the dropped feed is mostly a coincidence? I will say that even though he's waking up 3-4 times, I haven't once fed him before 7:30. His evening feeds are so fussy and so much shorter than they used to be, which I know happens, but shouldn't he be coming off happy and content? I appreciate any advice you have! I can't count the number of times I've already thought of switching to formula, but I really don't want to give up on the breastfeeding if it is going well.

[Samuel's mum]

I think if this was a hunger issue you'd have fed him before 7.30am. It would simply be unbearable otherwise. He would be distressed and unable to settle, awake and unhappy for ages, if eventually falling asleep then only for a short while. You would have fed him without question.

To be honest I think evening feeds are probably fussy and difficult because he's overtired.

How is his weight gain? If there are no concerns there that should reassure you it's not a supply issue.

Remember it's not simply about number of feeds but also quality. There are 4 month olds on the boards doing a 4 hour EASY and going 12 hours - that might only be 4 feeds (5 with a dreamfeed). I'm not saying that's for everyone (it wasn't for me) but just to illustrate it's quality not just quantity.

[Bryony]

I agree with Samuel's mum - although she's the expert here!  A hungry LO will not go back to sleep, or at least, not for long.

I think it's either a prop issue (the dummy) - in which case you might want to have a look at the props board for suggestions, or a lack of night time sleep issue - in which case the early bedtime would work.   At that age we did 7pm bedtime, then a 11pm DF, then 7am start the day.  You really shouldn't need feeds at 6pm, 9pm and then 11:30pm - the danger is that he will not be taking in much at each feed and won't really be interested

I would move bedtime earlier and then drop that catnap and make it a 7:30 bedtime instead of a nap

HTH!

Bryony 

[sensfan]

Thanks for the input...I was pretty sure he wouldn't settle if he was hungry, but it's nice to have someone confirm it. I'll work towards an earlier bedtime and see if that helps. Is it normal that this would have been less of an issue when he was younger? I'm thinking maybe because he's getting more A in longer stretches, it's affecting him more now than it did earlier.

[Samuel's mum]

Yes - I'm sure Bryony can confirm this - later bedtimes start to hurt a lot more as LOs get older. A young baby who doesn't get a 12 hour night seems to be able to cope and compensates in the day - less so as the weeks go by.

[sensfan]

oh, and his weight gain has always been on the low end (4 ozs a week). He was 8 lbs 13 when he was born, dropped to 8 lbs., and at his 4 month check up he was 13 lbs. 4.

[marcimommy]

Hi, can I chime in?
sensfan - you said that his last feeding is usually bad b/c his very fussy. that indicates to me that he is OT from being up so late. I would definitely start to put him to bed earlier and just give him a top off feed as part of his bedtime routine. You don't have to do it exactly 4 hours after his lats feeding. with DS at this age we did 7:00 p.m. than 8:30 p.m. you have to try to play around with bedtime and find his natural sleep window. It took me a while but now I know DH has to be in bed between 7:30 p.m. and 8:00 p.m. or we will have a crappy night!
Also if he goes down without the paci I would try to drop it as at this age is easier to wean it than later. HTH

[Samuel's mum]

4oz a week is fine but I agree it's at the low end. It's still acceptable though. Losing weight at birth is common - he lost a little more than is ideal but he sounds fine now.

I still think if this was a hunger issue you wouldn't be in any doubt. At night he would be demanding to be fed. Is he a baby who usually shows hunger cues clearly?

[Bryony]

Yes I agree with Samuel's mum about the late bedtime - when LOs are younger there is less differentiation between day and night sleep, so I suspect it matters less. As they get older, daytime and night time sleep are "different" so you need to make sure they are having enough of each

Bryony

[sensfan]

I suppose his hunger cues are pretty clear..although I'll admit that I've pretty much gotten into the habit of feeding him as soon as he gets up (as long as he's been sleeping long enough). What tends to add to my confusion (or maybe just my overall paranoia  ) with the breastfeeding is the fact that he's also a very pukey little boy. Never in pain, never seems to phase him, but he spits up A LOT! It just adds to my whole "is he getting enough" mania.

[Samuel's mum]

My 2 were/ are both major spitter-upers. Sam calls Josie 'our little hose'. And I reminded him HE wore a bib permanently for the first 6 months. Josie goes through tons of outfits but they are both 'happy spitters' thankfully.
In my case they are spitting up the excess as I have oversupply. If a baby spits up 'too much' e.g. with gas bubbles - they'll be hungry sooner (or wake up sooner with EASY).