Confused, naps taking away from night sleep???

[~Mama Bug~]

My LO is 19 weeks.  Her bedtime was midnight for numerous reasons. We're now trying to move her bedtime to a more decent time but the more we move it back the worse her sleeping habits get.  I know I need to allow for adjustment but I still wonder.  Also, days where she has a lot of trouble taking her naps and only takes about 2.5 hours of naps, she sleeps longer and better at night. When she naps every 1.5 - 2 hours for 45 - 1.5 hours at a time she sleeps less and wakes more.  I'm totally confused about this and can't even post a real routine because shes so all over the place due to the bedtime change.

Help?

Thanks,
~Kristen

[~*~Little Miss Sunshine~*~]

Hi Kristen!  Sorry to hear you are having some nap troubles.  They are never fun!  What is your ideal bedtime for Karlyn?  What is her bedtime now?

[~Mama Bug~]

She has been going to bed around 10:15 - 10:45 except the past couple nights she went to bed around midnight each night which is when we noticed the difference in how long she slept.

The most shes ever slept at night is ten hours (lately it's 8 or less) which is why I'm unsure what her bedtime should be. We'd like her to wake up no earlier than 8am but would prefer a 9am wake up. If she would sleep twelve hours I would love to put her down at 9pm.  At this point I'd be really happy with a 10pm bedtime, I could deal with an 8am wake up (just gotta get motivated to go to bed earlier! ).

So for now we've been going for 10pm but can't quite get there. The closer we get to 10 the more she wakes at 6am or earlier and wont go back to sleep.

I'm getting pretty frustrated to tell you the truth

Thanks for any help!
~Kristen

[~*~Little Miss Sunshine~*~]

How long have you been trying to get her bedtime moved forward?  I know this sounds unreasonable for you I"m sure, but Tracy recommends bedtime between 6 - 8 pm.  It is going to take a bit for your dd to get used to the earlier bedtime so give it some time.  WHen she wakes at 6am, do you feed her?  And if so, have you tried treating that as a NW and putting her back down?

I know it is so frustrating but hang in there.  It does get better I promise!

[~Mama Bug~]

Anytime she wakes before 8am we try getting her back to sleep. If we can't get her to sleep we just leave her in her crib. Sometimes she'll go back to sleep sometimes not. 
Last night she woke after 1.5hrs and no matter what we tried we couldn't get her back to sleep. Actually, we couldn't even get her calmed down until we took her out of her room, then she quit screaming. She yawned thirty minutes later so we tried again and it took an hour to get her to sleep, then she woke every couple of hours for the rest of the night. Slept till 8am though.
We've been trying for about a week and a half to move her bedtime.

[~*~Little Miss Sunshine~*~]

What do her naps look like?  How many is she taking?  Sorry for all the questions, trying to get the most info to give you some advice

[~Mama Bug~]

No problem with the questions. I know they're needed for informed help!

We've been putting her to nap every 1.5 - 2 hours and she'll usually sleep for only 45 minutes no matter how hard we try to get her to sleep longer. Her morning nap will go for 1.5 - 2 hours sometimes but I can't figure out what makes the difference between the 45 minute and longer naps.

She'll usually take four 45 min. naps but when she takes a good morning nap she only takes two additional naps (45 min each)

Thanks again for helping me!

[~*~Little Miss Sunshine~*~]

Normally, 45 minute naps indicate a need for more A time, so you might want to try increasing A time slightly (and only during one cycle so she doesn't get OT).  Realize that it may not work instantly but just be consistent and it should help.  Keep in mind though that the 1st A time for many babies tends to be the shortest since this is believed to be an extension of night sleep.  (this is certainly not true for all babies since my son's first A time has always been longer than the 2nd.  It really is trial and error, but make sure you try for more than one day).

Here is a sample routine that you should be aiming for

Wake/Eat in the morning: 8:00
Awake until about 10:00
Nap 10:00-12:00
E: 12:00
Awake until about 1:30-2:00
Nap from 2:00-4:00
E: 4:00
A:
E:6:00
S: catnap of about 30-45 minutes
E: 8:00
A:
S: 9:00

I do realize that not all babies are going to take 2 hour naps (my ds NEVER did) so you'd need to account for that.  You are probably not going to want to continue to move bedtime forward while sorting out the naps since this might throw your dd way out of sorts, so try just adjusting her first nap, once that is sorted, work on the 2nd nap, etc.  Then slowly bring the bedtime forward (by say, 15 minutes or so for about 3 or 4 days, then another 15 minutes).  This will not be a quick process but hopefully by doing it slowly, your dd will be able to adjust without getting OT.

One other thing to consider is overstimulation.  Make sure you have a good winddown and that she has ample time to do relaxing things before nap/bedtime.

[~Mama Bug~]

I think the winddown is a major factor for us. Her bedtime routine works wonders:

bath, dim room, lotion, pjs, bottle with mobile music on, cuddles/burping, lay in crib watching mobile, swaddle, white noise, and she falls asleep on her own.

Nap routines I'm having a bit of a problem with. I can't seem to think of enough things to do. We've got a semi routine including

white noise, close blinds, diaper change, cuddles/story, watch mobile, swaddle and then I have to rock her to sleep (haven't gotten the sleep training down for naps and I again think its due to the routine)

But it seems as though its not enough. Shes still not very tired when we get to the sleep part. I can't think of what else to add in there though, except for things like bottle which obviously I don't want her to associate with sleep.


Back to A times... Yesterday she was up for four hours, don't ask me why, and took an hour and a half nap opposed to 45 minutes. After that she was back to her regular 1.5 A 45 S times.

On the bedtime, she went to bed last night at 10:30 and slept till 8 this morning. She only woke once so I consider that a mini victory!

[~*~Little Miss Sunshine~*~]

YAY for a good nights sleep!  That is certainly positive!!  You say that your naptime winddown needs something else - maybe it would work if you started the routine a little later?   This might make her a little more tired by the time you get to the end. And you are correct by not wanting to introduce the bottle to make her sleepy.

It is great that she falls asleep independently for nighttime.  When do you plan to start sleep training for naps?  The only reason why I ask is because I would hate to have you work so hard on naps during the day only to have to go through the stress of trying to sleep train later.

[~Mama Bug~]

I want to sleep train naps soon but I know that she needs a better routine for naps first. I've tried doing the routine later but it always seems to get to the point where she's too tired to go through with it. 

When we started the same bedtime routine consistently, one day she just fell asleep on her own. Ever since then I don't AP her to sleep at night since I know she can do it herself. Since I didn't have to do the sleep train at night I was thinking...ok, ok, hoping that once we got the routine established I wouldn't have to do it for naps either.

[~*~Little Miss Sunshine~*~]

Well that is great that it worked out for bedtime like that!  Naps usually are much harder especially the longer AP is used...Really the only routine you need is having some activity before naptime (i.e. E.A.S.).  I would start sleep training straight away because more than likely, the routine will be off for a bit until she gets used to falling asleep on her own.

Have you ever tried to put her down awake for a nap?

[~Mama Bug~]

Yeah, I've tried. She lays there and looks at me for a minute and then starts crying. I try shh/pat, pu/pd, everything and she just cries and gets really worked up. It gets to the point where she seems like shes going to make herself sick, coughs a lot and I just can't calm her down. I go out, take a break, I've even tried feeding her to calm her down, but as soon as we walk back in the room she starts up again. At that point the only place she'll nap is the swing or the car until bedtime.

Thats why I think she really needs the nap routine, so she knows whats coming next.

I really don't know what to do with her when it comes to naps.  She gets plenty of Activity before naptime. I've tried keeping it low key and also going the other way and it always ends up the same way.

I'm just getting more frustrated the more I try to sleep train her.  Even when she wakes up to eat at night she has trouble going back to sleep on her own. Takes about half an hour each time. Wears me out!

[~*~Little Miss Sunshine~*~]

I think the key is to choose one method of sleep training and stick to it for a bit, otherwise dd will be confused.  If you start one method, then give up after a short time and get her to sleep by doing AP, she is going to continue to cry each time you try to sleep train her, until she understands that she can do it herself.  My suggestion would be to try shh/pat for a solid week, not using any AP and my guess is she will learn very quickly   She obviously has the ability to put herself to sleep as shown at night, but during naps, she thinks she needs you to help her get to sleep.

I wish there was an easier answer for you.  I remember the days of sleep training and how sometimes I woudl just cry because I couldn't take it anymore, but those days pass quickly and now I am very thankful that my child can fall asleep on his own

[~Mama Bug~]

I know you're right, it's just hard when she cries like that. Makes me want to cry too! I'm going to work up some courage and give it a try!