Which easy should I be doing>

[Meg's Mom]

Megs mom, that is really interesting about the later wake up time, that would help alot wouldnt it - how would I go about moving her day? 6.45/7pm seems to be as late as she can make t without absolutely giving up and melting down after an OT day.
She doesnt actually often make it to 7, its often nearer 6/6.30 or she wakes up at 5 and she goes back down and I wake her or she wakes anyway at about 7.

We had a reasonable day today - thanks for the advice on early nap - she woke up at 6.30 and I had her back down in her cot at 7.30 and she settled really well and slept for 1hr 40mins (with an extension at 30 minutes)

The thing that troubles me is that she has seemed as OT, if not more OT than usual the last few days when we have been having some nap success.

Here are my ideas, the others might have some more too i hope.  I wouldn't focus on the bed time to move the wake up time since she is so ot already.  I would try w2s and if that didn't work i would try to give a small feed then straight back down until 8am when you wake her.  It might not work right away, it make take her time to adjust on what you want, but i think def. worth a shot.

Can you describe for me how you extend the naps again at that 30min mark?

My thoughts on why she might be more OT...her body now knows what it has been missing and is craving more sleep.  I know the first time i was able to sleep through the night i was more tired instead of refreshed.

[babymunkey]

Hi Rebecca

Still here keeping tabs on this thread.

I think Meg's Mom is so right re the OT - If you think if she has been OT for a while, it will take a while of 3 steps forward 2 steps back to recover from it.

I remember reading somewhere once that you need to replace sleep literally hour for hour - maybe that only applies to adults, but I'm sure there's some logic in it for babs too.

Hope you've had a bearable weekend

H

[MathildasMum]

Hi everyone

Well......as weekends recently go this one has certainly not been bad!! For one I havent been in tears at all!!!

Yesterday I managed TWO naps with an extension and the rest of her sleep was on/off catnaps because we were out and about and although not perfect this kept any major meltdowns at bay for most of the day although I did have a very rough time putting her to bed.

She then woke at 11pm and then 4am then 8am so although two more feedings/wakings than we were used to it wasnt too bad at all.

This morning I DIDNT manage to extend the nap BUT (and I think this is good news) she woke at 45 minutes and not 30. So although stll a short nap maybe a sign that either the OT is reducing or that she is doing better with the jolts on her own.

I spoke to the sleep consultant today and one of the main points that interested me was this:

She said that in the morning on the school run she may well doze on and off and have a catnap but I shouldnt consider this her morning nap but bring her straight in at 9am and put her down for a nap. With consistency this will be come a proper nap and she should be able to stay awake on the school run as her A time rather than S time.

Would you all agree with that as if this is the case I think here may lie the route of our OT problem - she said that sleep on the go if she wakes when I stop driving/rocking/walking isnt a proper sleep and therefore shouldnt consider it restorative and expect her to have much A time after it.

SO....she suggests

Up at 7am Feed, get dressed etc then downstairs for her A time which will basically be sitting watching the kids get ready, into her seat in good time then off on the school run. Not to worry if she does drop off but not desperately trying to keep her asleep and possibly even lift her out of her seat at school to break up the school run into chunks so that it is more like A time.

Then home at
9.00/9.15 straight into dark nursery start nap ritual (she also suggest temporary light feed if necessary)

Sleep until 11 (doing calming/pick up put down/nap extensions etc in this time if she doesnt make it through on her own) and to stay in the nursery extending etc or if all else fails just very low key, quiet, dark A time)

Downstairs and feeding at 11

Activity time until 12.30/1

Nap ritual and sleep until 2/2.30 (same as above re. extensions and very low key time until she catches on to it being sleep time)

School run again where it will eventually be her A time but she may well catnap due to the OT

Home at 3.30/4 - nap again, she suggested that in time as the first two sleeps are good proper sleeps this could become a slightly later catnap but for the meantime attempt a proper sleep

Up at 5pm and feed

Upstairs by 6pm bath if she is up for it then begin bedtime routine, including top up feed and in bed asleep by 6.30/7

Dreamfeed 9/930

Attempt NOT to feed until around 4.45ish as if she has a 1,2,3am feed i have noticed her feeds in the day are terrible (obviously as long as I have managed to get good feeds in the day)

If she feeds at 5am treat as night feed and back to bed, then move 7am to 8am

Anything after about 6.30 we agreed would be the start of the day.

What do you think??

[vadensmommy]

I think that sounds pretty good Rebecca - it really is a pretty straightforward 4hr EASY if you look at it that way.

E 7
A 7-9
S 9-11

E 11
A 11-1
S 1-2:30/3

E 3
A 3-5-I think the routine your sleep consultant outlined and what would be the typical timings of a 4hr EASY are a bit different.  You might have to wake her earlier from the pm nap for your school run - not real sure
S 5-5:45 catnap

E 5:45 - optional feed to use as a top up
A 5:45-7 bath, jammies, night ritual
S 7 for the night

DF - I think the timing here is up to you.  I would probably have fed closer to 10, but plenty of moms have success with earlier DF's. 

Sounds good to me, and I hope you find some success with it!  With this routine outlined, the stretches of A time are longer than what she is doing now, but the sleep consultant is right - those short off and on catnaps are not nearly as restorative as a proper nap in her crib, so if she is getting proper naps, then she'll be more rested, and it might even make it easier to get this OT worked out.

Good luck!  Keep us posted   I know there are a lot of us cheering you on!!!

[MathildasMum]

Thanks vadensmommy

I think the time has come to just GO FOR IT with a routine, I know its nothing that I havent learnt already but having someone on the phone to talk it al through with and who will make herself available for the first week for me to speak to as much as I did has given me a bit of motivation.

At the moment Im trapped by OT and short A times but her saying that I can  disregard the dozing on the school run and go ahead and put her down for a morning straight away has made me think maybe we can do this.

I dont know if it will work but Im thinking that if I make the parts of the routine that I WANT to have ie naps at specific times, feeding well established etc then I can sort of ignore catnaps and top up feeds as my means to the ultimate end instead of thinking that it means I cant have a routine IYSWIM.

The DF worries me a bit because it has always seemed to cause more NW for us but now we are getting them anyway, what have I got to lose? Im hoping that as the OT reduces and she is less overtired, eating better in the day a good solid DF might make all the difference. As if I dont DF I wont be able to wean the night feeds with confidence in case she is genuinely hungry.

I wonder if I have got it wrong as when we were on the phone we were talking about having feeds 3 hourly for a while so I know I can solidly stick to them and then stretch them out properly when naps are fitted in around them instead of wildly veering from 2.5-4 hours every day because everything is so inconsistent.

I think she was suggesting if she woke and fed at 5am to then feed at 8am 11am 2pm 5 then 7 topup which is 3 hour easy

But if she got to 6.30/7 then do 7 [small topup at 9.15], 11, 2, 5 then 7

Which again is a variation of 3 hour easy.

Im confused now LOL

[MathildasMum]

Forgot to say earlier too that I have put her down with one arm out of the swaddle tonight - more and more she is trying to suck her thumb and I just think if Im going to go for it with the self settling its a bit unfair if her arms are both strapped by her sides. She does have a dummy but if she could find her thumb it might help, have also given her a lovey and she went off to sleep nicely at bedtime with her dummy in and one arm holding the lovey.

I hope that this doesnt disturb things too much!

[Meg's Mom]

Rebecca, that all sounds really good and very interesting about the catnap/nap during the school run...i would have never thought of that.

I look forward to hearing how Monday goes!  Good luck...

You know what, you have motivated me to just go for it too...starting tomorrow we are going to nap in her crib...see if we can get over these 30mn naps together :-).

[vadensmommy]

Rebecca - have you seen the Aussie swaddle??  It seems wildly popular here on BW, although I didn't find it till after V was weaned.  It allows the baby to have their arms up by their head, but still be pretty limited movement wise:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=1439.0

I don't think there is a huge issue about going back to 3hr feeds, but I don't think I would wake her at the 3 hour mark if she is taking a nap.  I would be really conscious of her NEED to feed.  If she is hungry at 3hrs, then I agree, I'd feed her, but if she's taking a good nap, I sure wouldn't mess that up iykwim??!!  I would also be really careful to watch and make sure she doesn't get to a point where she is just snacking - taking just enough feed to get her to the 3hr mark which makes her wake hungry from a nap, then again just taking enough for a little longer - because she's not that hungry since she just ate 3hrs ago.  Just something ELSE to be mindful of

[MathildasMum]

i agree with you about the 3hr feeds - the thing is tho because the sleeps on the plan are straight after school at 9.15/30-11am then 12.30/1-2/2.30 I dont have much room for manouvere because of the school runs. whatever happens she has to be up and in the car at just after 2.30.

It would work really with the feed times on the new routine but obviously if this isnt suitable for mathildas growing age and stage im not sure how to tweak it - need to speak to her about that i think. (the sleep lady not mathilda lol!!)

Last night was GREAT she slept 6.30pm-6.25am without a peep (DF at 9.40pm) So the hand out didnt affect her.

Today has been so far

6.25am wake and eat
8am dropped off in carseat until 8.25am
Stayed awake on school run
9.15 straight to room, light feed then into cot awake and was asleep at 9.53am after settling herself
woke at 10.25 and she is up there attempting to settle herself now, not sure if she is going to manage it but im going to try until about 11/11.15 to get her to extend, if not i will feed, give her some A then get her back down at about 12.30

I feel so much more positive after the good sleep and regaining some control by trying to structure things again.

It rings true in teh book about touchies not doing well without having lots of routine - i think this is where i have fallen down, i keep abandoning everything becasue its not working intstead of trying harder with routine as that is what she needs.

[Meg's Mom]

You sound so so much more postive - i am sure wee M will pick up on that which help her along too!

Hope she got back to sleep and nap 2 went well!

[MathildasMum]

Here is a [very detailed] outline of our day!

wake 6.25am
feed 6.30am 7oz
sleep 8am carseat
awake 8.25am (counted this merely as a doze, didnt try to extend it and still put her down as soon as we got back)
light feed 9.20am 4oz
asleep 9.53am cot
awake 10.25am
leaving her to settle
settled for a while between 10.25-55am not sure if
slept up out of cot at 10.55am
feed 11.15am not that keen - took 4oz over about 45 minutes
getting v tired so upstairs at 12.05
in cot at 12.15pm
fussed a bit, replugged dummy
asleep 12.23pm
awake 12.53pm replugged dummy tucked her back in and left the room
grizzled a bit then became upset so went in gave her blankie and put dummy in,
left the room (is dummy becoming a problem?)
13.03 asleep again
13.18 woke up briefly replugged back to sleep
14.10 woke her up and fed her took 6oz
out at school, almost dropped off at one point but kept her going
15.40 starting to get very tired so upstairs to room
15.45 in cot
16.10 asleep after quite a hard time settling her, almost gave in but picked
up put down a bit then settled her in her cot using patting and shushing (she
got a bit overtired here)
16.15 asleep
16.45 awake - attempted an extension but she was very upset so got her up
(later regretted this!)
17:00 feed - took 4oz
Got tired quite quickly here and didnt want to put her through bath (do you
think i should have extended last nap?)
Took her upstairs at 6.15pm did her routine, cut it short as she was falling
asleep in my arms - took 4oz from bottle
In cot fast asleep at 6.50pm

I will dreamfeed again at approx 9.30

I was worried about the feeds at smaller intervals but she has taken 29oz today which is unprecedented!! and yet to have the dreamfeed!

[MathildasMum]

megsmom, have you been getting on?

[Meg's Mom]

Hi rebecca, that sounds pretty good..you extended 2 out of the 3 naps!  You should feel really good about that!  Well done to and sticking to it!!

You asked if dummy is becoming a problem?  From looking at your timings on nap 2 she needed repluged at the 20min mark so it was probably a jolt from OT not the dummy that was the problem.  I also noticed she is waking at 15min mark too.  Reason i noticed this detail is that is also the time my LO is waking. 

Since we r in LA, Calf. we just finished our first nap.  I was pleasently surprised i was able to extend the nap :-) :-).  She took 15mn of pu/pd and shh/pat to settle, then woke after 15min.  shh/Pat and right back to sleep for 30mins.  ssh/pat for 15min and back to sleep for 7min.  Shh/pat for 15min and sleep for 15min.  shh/pat for 1min and slept for 1hr (i stayed and held her thru the jolts for 20+ mins) !!! Yea!

I also put a navy blue sheet over the crib like a tent and held it in place w/ large bulldog clips, so when she opens her eyes, which she does a lot - the v. stim is nil.  I then got myself under the sheet when shh/pat. 

For my next nap i am going to stay for the full 20min...i think this will help w/ the 7 and/or 15min wakings. 

Wishing you another good night :-)

[babymunkey]

Hi All

Still here watching how you are both getting on - and I'd just like to say that I am in awe of your patience and dedication to getting to a routine that works for your lo's. You are both doing an amazing job - Meg's Mom great persistence on your last nap - I could never face it - I would just get soo frustrated and upset that I used to just get him up.

Rebecca - I don't think I would worry about the dummy. Since we got rid of the swaddle we're much more dependent on the dummy to go to sleep - Harris doesn't like much of a wind down, he wants to be in his bed asap when its nap/sleep time, but once he gets there he has to have a wriggle party to get comfy and try to get sleepy - he can do sleepy to asleep independently no problem, the bit we struggle with now is wide awake and thinking everything is funny to sleepy! So I shamelessly use the dummy for that - and he too has a lovey which he grabs with one arm and rubs all over his face and head - its sooo cute! (My £3 stolen goods from Tesco!) So I don't think its a problem and even if it is, if it works for now great, then deal with it later.

Just wanted to say hi and say that we're still routing for you both!

H

[Meg's Mom]

quick question: due to 2 our family situation maddie sleeps in our room at night, but can't sleep there during the day as dh works nights and sleeps day.  Soo...where should I have her take naps? 

morning nap - can take in crib which is in the girls shared room - nice and dark.
noon nap - can take in crib, but some days we must do school pickup.
afternoon nap - can't take in crib as Megan is napping, she can nap in pack in play which is in family room (very light and big room).

Should i keep moving her about or just stick w/ pack in play?