Help! 2+ hours to go to sleep

[mayamom]

Help!  I spend 2+ hours a night getting my baby to sleep.  My daughter is 2 months old.  Once she is asleep, she will stay asleep for 3 hours during the day and up to 7 hours at night, waking for 1 feed in the middle of the night. 

The problem is getting her to fall asleep.  For the last few weeks, I will spend up to 2 or more hours getting her to sleep.  I can’t take staring at the same wall any longer!  We don’t really have a routine.  She will wake up for a feed in the morning between 5 and 8 am.  Then, I feed her and get her back to sleep right away, usually falling asleep on my breast.  Then, she will sleep for about 3 hours.  She wakes up, I feed her.  Then she is happy and I play with her for about 30 minutes.  At this point, she has been up for about 1 hour and 15 minutes and is getting tired.  I start rocking her to sleep.  She will start to fall asleep then wake up 15 minutes later.  This will continue to the next feeding, about 2 to 2 ½ hours later.  I will feed her, and she will usually fall asleep at my breast after eating.  Then she will sleep.  If she doesn’t fall asleep, we will repeat the 15 minute catnaps until the next feeding. 

I tried putting her to sleep awake but sleepy, with the pat/shush method but she just kicks and screams in her crib.  This will go on for an hour, until it is time for the next feed.  I feel like I am torturing her in her crib.

Any ideas on how to get her to fall asleep?  She doesn’t like a pacifier, only my breast.   

How do I get her on a schedule?  Do I need to wake her in the morning?  What if she wakes at 5:30 for a feed, takes 45 minutes to eat, do I still wake her at 7am?  What if her nap is longer than it should be?  Do I wake her?  It doesn't seem right. 

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Hi mayamom,
Hugs! And is this your first?

First of all, yes, I think you should start your DD on EASY. Here's a link to a thread to help you get started. Keep in mind that you won't have your lo on EASY right away. It takes time for them to get used to a routine. I'd like to emphasize "routine" as opposed to "schedule." My lo is 4 months, and she still has trouble staying on EASY, but she has some sense of structure and consistency, even though the day to day changes a little bit.

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=62100.0

First of all, I'm a new mom, and 2 months was very difficult for us. So, I understand your frustration. But, developmentally, your DD hasn't learned the skill to fall asleep yet, and will be learning for the next several months, depending on your routine and the baby's temperment. I know for us, we had to do MAJOR sleep training, and our lo started to get it at about 3 months, and she's still learning to fall asleep today. Hang in there.

As to your questions...
Do I need to wake her in the morning?  Yes, I would wake at 7:00 AM.

What if she wakes at 5:30 for a feed, takes 45 minutes to eat, do I still wake her at 7am?  Yes, my DD still does this, and I still wake her just so she has a consistent wake-up time.

What if her nap is longer than it should be?  Do I wake her?  Yes, I wouldn't let her sleep for more than 2 hours during the day so she doesn't get day/night confusion. If you let her sleep as long as she wants to during the day, she won't get her calories in during the day and will be compensating for it by waking up in the middle of the night to nurse.

From the look of it, your "A" time seems a bit long for your baby's age. At 2 months, you won't be doing much except nurse (30-45 minutes), change diaper (5 minutes), do a 5-minute activity like look at mommy, then start wind-down routine for nap and help baby learn independent sleep(20 minutes or more, depending on temperment). The entire routine, including nursing up to the point your DD actually falls asleep will be about 1 hour - 1 hour 15 minutes.

Hope this helps. Keep us posted on your progress.

[mayamom]

Thanks for the response.  Yes, this is my first.  I'll definitely try to get her on EASY.  I have one question - you said "then start wind-down routine for nap and help baby learn independent sleep".  How do I help baby learn independent sleep?  Put her in her crib and try pat/shush?  Or just put her in her crib?  What if she continues to cry for an hour?

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Well, most babies won't fall asleep on their own w/o some form of help. I would develop some kind of consistent wind-down routine that you do everytime. Mine, for example, I would sit in the rocker with her and whisper quietly to her until she was really calm, then put on CD with soothing music, swaddle, sh/pat over the shoulder to the rhythm of the music, then when she was drowsy, but not asleep, lay her down in her crib and continue to sh/pat until she fell asleep. This is going to scare you, but because my lo was "spirited", we did sh/pat for an hour at times before she fell asleep. (Your DD may be the same or take less time, depending on temperment.) The good news is that I was persistent, and sh/pat DID work for me, even when I thought I would fall apart sh/patting. Slowly the sh/pat time got less and less. At 3 months, she would sleep by herself w/o sh/pat if she wasn't OT, and if she was OT, she needed help still, but not as much.

As for the crying issue, I didn't ever let my lo cry, not even for 5 minutes. Sometimes, I did let her cry for 1 minute just to see what type of cry it was... Anyway, if crying was escalating, I did sh/pat over my shoulder until crying stopped. The thing about sh/pat is that you have to adapt it to suit your baby. My sh... was quite loud...had to be loud enough to distract her. I finally got a white-noise machine to do the "sh" part for me. And the patting had to be a specific rhythm with intent. The soft patting didn't work for me. Had to pat firmly and rhythmically. But, each lo is different. You have to find the best rhythm, strength that your lo will respond to...If the crying is really bad, I let her fall asleep over my shoulder while sh/patting before laying her down, but I always tried to get her to fall asleep in her cot as much as I could.

Anyway, try not to get overwhelmed with too much info here...take it one step at a time and just try to get started on EASY. Then, you can worry about other details as they come up!

[mayamom]

Thanks for your help Mika.  I really appreciate all the info.  It made it easier on me yesterday.

I started EASY yesterday.  It is still hard for me to wake her but I just remind myself that she needs to eat and not get day/night confusion - that makes it much easier.  It went pretty well.  She cried a little when we put her down, more of a mantra cry than a real cry.  She got OT last night because we were at my parents house for dinner.  Hopefully today will go better!

[nyree]

What is a mantra cry, and how do you pinpoint this?

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Mayamom, great job in getting started with EASY! Just know that we are here for you.
As for the sleep issue, if it really bothers you to wake DD up, keep in mind that if your lo has a really short A time and she naps for over 2 hrs to stay on EASY schedule, it's not a big deal if its like 2.5 hrs of sleep. Just avoid letting her sleep as long as she wants to like...3, 4, 5 hrs of sleep.

Nyree, welcome to the thread! A mantra cry is a really low, non-escalating cry. Sometimes it has its own rhythm. My DD's mantra cry was a moaning sound ...ah, ah, ah... It's different for every baby, but the key is that it does not escalate and is pretty mild. Mine didn't even have a recognizable one until about 3 months. Some DDs have one from the start.  With mantra cry, you don't intervene. You let her cry because it's their way of settling down to sleep. When I first heard Emma's mantra cry, I was soo happy because I knew that she was trying to sleep on her own.

Anyway good luck and keep us posted!
Mika

[mayamom]

How long am I supposed to pat/shush for - until she is asleep, until her eyes are closed more than they are open, until she starts her mantra cry?  BTW, I'm new to this and was wondering what DH, lo, NW, and EW stands for?  I've seen them all over and can't figure them out.  Thanks.

Not sure if I should ask this here, but when do you get time to get out of the house during the day?  I tried going to the store yesterday but she didn't sleep well in her carseat.  So, basically, she missed her second nap.  She was then very overtired in the late afternoon.  I finally got her to sleep but it took a long time.  I feel like I will be stuck in the house until she takes less naps or has longer A time.  Is this the case?

[Emma-Rose's mom]

He hee I totally understand the confusion when you are new. I'm new myself, but I've been stumbling along, figuring things out. I am glad that I can help someone else out from all of my little fumbles.

So, I don't always know what the letters stand for, but did learn what they mean by reading in between the lines. DH = your hubby/partner     LO or DD = your baby      NW = Night wakings      EW (not sure) but maybe Early Waking? I have to see that one in context...  Oh, then there's w2s = wake to sleep

And as for sh/pat, you are supposed to do it until she is asleep, then you slowly lessen the patting intensity. Then you stay with you DD in the nursery to make sure she doesn't jolt herself awake. If she starts jolting, you can help her transition by gently putting your hand over DD and holding him/her down gently so that the jolting is less severe. Then sh/pat again if DD is not asleep.  But, if she has a mantra cry, don't sh/pat. Let her use the mantra cry to settle herself. Only sh/pat if she can't fall asleep on her own after 20 minutes.

And your last question...do you really want me to answer that??  ???Well, you shouldn't be a prisoner, but you are somewhat confined during sleep training. I allowed myself one outing everyday so I wasn't stuck. Just keep in mind the time you lose investing in sleep training now will be regained later when your DD has it down.   :: Does your DD sleep in the stroller or snugli? If she does sleep well in stroller or struggli, try taking her out while she's awake to do your shopping? Then when you get to the store, you can use the stroller or the snugli, and she'll fall asleep during her "nap" time in there. It's kinda reinforcing  "prop" use (stroller and/or snugli), but I found it necessary for my own sanity every once in awhile...

M

[mayamom]

I've been putting my lo down in her crib after a short wind down routine.  But she usually will start to fuss.  So I will pat/shush for about 20 minutes (I  only shush when she is fussy, otherwise it is too tiring).  Then I stop.  She will sometimes grunt for a while (what I think is her mantra cry), then will fall asleep.  I've tried doing it for only 10 minutes but then she wakes up and I have to start all over again. 

I'll try to stay in the house today and tomorrow but then I'm going to have to get out!!

[Emma-Rose's mom]

20 minutes of sh/pt is GREAT for 2-mo old! (Avg time). Sounds like you are doing fine. It will get easier, trust me.  I had to sh/pt for an hour, and she learned independent sleep at 3 months. So, I think it won't be long b4 your DD gets the idea and you'll be able to lessen the amount of sh/pt time.

How's the night sleep? Still taking 2 hrs for your DD to sleep?
Now that you've started EASY, can you post your routine?

M

[mayamom]

Most of the time, she will fall asleep within 20-30 minutes of sh/pat.  Last night, it took us an hour to get her down but I think she was overtired!  Luckily, my DH was there to help.  She has been sleeping good at night.  Usually waking once to eat.  I haven't introduced a dreamfeed b/c I am afraid it won't go well.  Also, I prefer to go to sleep early, by 9:30pm or 10pm so a dreamfeed would interupt my schedule too.  I'm trying a 3 hour EASY.  The mornings are a lot more consistent than the afternoon.

7:00 wake and eat
7:45 change diaper and play for 5-10 minutes then begin wind down
8:15 asleep - hopefully
10:00 wake and eat
10:45 change diaper and play for 5-10 minutes then begin wind down
11:15 sleep - hopefully
1:00 wake and eat (unless she wakes earlier)
1:30 change diaper and play for 15-20 minutes then begin wind down
2:15 sleep - hopefully
3:30 eat (she took a shorter nap here)
4:00 change diaper and play for 15-20 minutes
4:30 sleep
5:30 eat
6:00 play
7:00 bath
7:30 Eat (bottlefeed so DH can help)
7:50 wind-down and put to sleep
Then she will wake between 2 am and 5 am for a feeding.  Then back to sleep until 7 (or 7:30)

I just keep reminding myself that it will get easier. 

Do you know where I can determine what kind of temperment my child has?  I've seen a lot of people refer to 'spirited' or 'tempered' babies.  I would like to determine what my lo is.  I haven't read the book yet, I just ordered it so it is being shipped.  Is there a link on the website?  or is it only in the book?

Thanks.

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Well first of all, your 3-hr EASY looks great! If you wanted to introduce a DF, you can do it b/t 9:30 or 10:00. I do mine at 9:45, b/c I'm in bed by 10:00 myself. With DF, don't wake DD. Just feed in her sleep. Don't even burp or change diaper. DD goes straight down into crib. But, it looks like you are doing great even w/o a DF.

As to temperment, take a look at this thread.
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63275.0

Keep it up:)

[mayamom]

What is your routine?  How long did it take you to sleep train your dd?  You mentioned she learned to sleep on her own by 3 months - is that right? 

BTW, thanks for all your support.  It has really helped me!

[Emma-Rose's mom]

Okay, well, sleep training never really stops. Different things pop up along the way developmentally. But, yes, Emma slept on her own (mostly) by 3 mo at night. Other than wind-down and swaddle, she went down in her cot, talked to herself for about 20 minutes, but fell asleep on her own w/o help. During the day, she needed help sometimes, and other times she went down on her own. Mostly, like yours, the early mornings were more consistent then later in the afternoon when the day had caught up with her. That's where I was at 3 months, but I can't stress enough that every DD is different. I was doing the same as you, asking all mothers how long their babies took. I was jealous of those who only had to do it for a week, and other moms were sleep training still at 6 months... Key is just be consistent and let yours learn at her own pace.

At 2 months, where your lo is at now, was my toughest month. I was stressed b/c my DD needed to start daycare at 3 months, and I wanted her to learn independent sleep b4 daycare so she wouldn't be left to CIO (cry it out) at daycare for naps. But my routine at 2 months was eat at 7, 10, 1, 4, 6:30, DF 9:45, cross fingers and DD usually woke again at 4:30AM at night. But my naps were all over the place. It would take an hour to sh/pat, so she only napped 30 minutes before next feed and was already OT. Or, if I was lucky and she took less time to fall asleep, she would wake early from nap. Then I was like, do I feed her now? or wait? But, really, I decided to not care about the other nap issues and focused only on independent sleep. I didn't want DD to CIO at daycare nor did I want to be that parent that has to drive around the block or rock my baby to sleep when she weighed 20 pounds. Now that her independent sleep is more consistent, I'm now working on extending naps. That's why sleep training never really stops...

4 months, the routine is 4 hr EASY, and believe me, there are other issues like teething that come up. So, just when you think you got it, things change on you. Just go with the flow as issues come up and focus only on one thing at a time. You'll be less stressed and happier that way!