Catnap in the evening or not?

[Snubu]

Our 5 month old is on a 4 hpur EASY.  Almost.  This is how it looks:

7: E
9-11: S
11: E
13-15: S
15: E
17: catnap
18: E
20:E and to sleep by 21

I cluster feed in the evening (I did it with my daughter too) because I found it easier to wake up for a feed at two than keeping myself up until 22 or 23 for a dream feed...It works well, both of my kids gave up the 2īo clock feed by three months and my son now wakes up once a night for a feed, somewhere between 4 and 7.  So sometimes itīs a night feed and sometimes an early breakfast.  I put him to bed at 21 since he always sleeps 10 hours, no matter what time I put him to bed.  Putting him to bed earlier results in earlier wake ups.  Thatīs the way my baby works, like a clock.

The problem is, that now the catnap is getting shorter and shorter and the kid is usually up still at 22  .  Heīs just not tired.  I put him to bed at 20.45 but heīs still babbling and playing with his feet at 22.  Is he overtired or is it time to drop the catnap at 17?  I mean he is just 5 months...

Thank yuo for the help!

-Snubu-

[deckchariot]

wow - it sounds like you really know your bub!  Well done!  We always had trouble with the catnap and my dd - finally dropped it (ok, I gave up giving it) at 6 mos.  So he's not all that far off.  we did occasionally do an early bedtime if she didn't take the catnap (only 30 min early) and that didn't seem to affect any NW or EWs.

hth
michelle

[Snubu]

Please tell me itīs some developmental thing!

Because I sure thought I knew my little boy but now he seems like a stranger from outer space.  He used to fall asleep both on his naps and in the evening in 10 minutes by just putting him into his bed.  Now heīs babbling for an hour and screaming for a half an hour and then the daily routine is totally off.  He does some EW during the night, 2 or 3 times and wakes up at 6!  Itīs been like this for 4 or 5 days now.  He had a flue but itīs already a week or two ago and it didnīt disturb his sleep at all. 

We have given him a few teaspoons of potato, broccoli and pear every now and then because heīs very interested in eating and he, for example, loves drinking from a grown up glass.  So this is a developmental thing going on right now.  And during the last couple of weeks he has learned many things. Like reaching out to toys, trying to crawl to them and grasping them and moving them from one hand to another.  And he has "discovered" his big sister and loves her!

Our marriage almost ended and we had some miserable times (I wrote about it on the Relationships board) but now things are better so maybe he just wants to enjoy his happy parents instead of sleeping too.

So,  a lot is going on right now which could cause disturbances in sleeping.  I do believe that itīs a stage that will pass by itself (or at least it always did with our daughter without actually doing anything to it) but it is frustrating!

Now a miracle happened...He fell asleep in 15 minutes while I was writing this.  Letīs hope this continues...

Any comments?!?

-Snubu-

[deckchariot]

wow - it sounds like he's got a lot going on!  So yes, it could very well be developmental.  The only other thing I might try is pushing his A time by 10 or 15 min.  You could try that for 2 or 3 days and see if it makes any difference.  If it's taking him so long to fall asleep, he may just not be tired enough.  If you don't notice any improvement with great A time, then I'd just write it off as developmental and try to wait it out.....hang in there!

[Snubu]

This is getting "hellish"!

We have been doing some serious PU/PD (with ear plugs) for a week or two (canīt keep track of time) now.  He can scream for two hours before falling asleep.  Both on naps and in the evening.  Iīm about to have a stroke  ! 

Yes he most certainly is OT and hungry after two hours of screaming but heīs not OT nor hungry when we first put him to sleep and we donīt miss the window.  Weīre just unsuccesful in getting him to sleep in the first place and then itīs too late.

So the routine is off and we are just struggling to get him on two naps a day and to sleep in the evening.  All our lives evolve around getting the baby to sleep and our first born is pretty much alon since my husband is working long days.  My husband would love to let me go to sleep early and put the baby asleep in the evening but for some reason he prefers me.  He doesnīt stop screaming at all when his father is with him. 

Is this separation anxiety?!? Or what?  Help!

-Snubu-

[deckchariot]

oh dear....I'm sorry it's so awful right now!!!  BIG HUGS to you!!!  Did you try any extension of his A time?  I have to give you big kudos for all that pu/pd you're doing - I never could do it, always had to be dh who did it.  Does he calm in your arms when you pick him up?  Is it immediate or does it take awhile?  How long does it take to get him to stop crying (if he doesn't stop when you pick him up)?  Does he start crying as soon as you start putting him down in the crib?  What do you do then?  Just trying to see exactly how you're doing pu/pd and how he's responding.  It could be SA or it could be a need to tweak how you're doing pu/pd.

I"m guessing if he's been having bad naps and nights for 2 weeks now that he's way OT.  Will he sleep in the pram/stroller/carriage if you take him out?  I'd say try to get him some sleep using whatever AP means you can, then start fresh tomorrow.  Let's figure out how you're doing pu/pd and see if we need to modify that.  Also, what A time are you trying for first thing in the morning?  Lets make a plan and try to save your sanity.  Hang in there!!!!!

michelle

[Snubu]

I really make it sound worse than it is... .  Sorry!

The nights are great. Once we get him to sleep heīll sleep to 7 or 8 and only wakes up once for a feed sometime between 4 and 6.  He is also a good napper.  Once he falls asleep he sleeps for two hours.  And he naps twice a day.  If the second nap is short then he takes the catnap in the buggy while we are in the park playing with big sister. 

So he does get enough sleep.  10 hours a night and 5 hours of naps.

But the falling asleep part is very difficult rigth now.  As I said, he might scream for two hours. 

This is how we do PU/PD:

First I swaddle him and hold him in my arms talking to him silly little things about sleeping.  When heīs calm I put him in his bed.  If he starts fussing I first try to calm him by placing my hand on his chest.   If it doesnīt work I pick him up and just hold him.  As soon as he calms down (he usually starts suckling his tongue or the blanket) or starts twisting his back I put him down.  If he screams or starts screaming when I put him down I again try to calm him down in his bed and if this doesnīt work in letīs say 2 to 5 minutes, I pick him up again.   

Sometimes he calms in my arms rigth away, sometimes not at all.  SOmetimes he starts screaming immediately after I put him down, sometimes not at all.  And everything in between.  So itīs totally random. 

It used to take 10 to 20 minutes and 0 to 3 PU:s before he fell happily asleep on his own but now it takes much longer.  Yesterday only 45 minutes, though...

If he doesnīt settle in 30 minutes I usually take him from the bed, talk to him and cuddle for a while and try again after 15 minutes.  Itīs usually a good idea.  And after two hours of trying he usually drains a bottle of milk.  So after two hours Iīm not sure anymore if heīs just frustrated or hungry.  Well, thirsty anyway after all the struggling!

I did extend his A time.  Instead of putting him to bed at 8.45 I did it at 9.  Somedays it works but other days he screams until 10, then I take him up, give him milk at 10.30 and try sleeping again at 11.  It also works.  But now itīs a bit difficult since I never know if the first nap will be at 9 or 11    So if he wakes up 7 or 8 depending on when he fell asleep (he always sleeps 10 hours, no matter what  ) and the firs nap is somewhere between 9 and 11, itīs quite difficult to determine the length of his firs A time.  It used to be two hours, from 7 to 9.

He was weighed today and it showed that heīs not gaining enough weight.  He needs more food.  Do you have any ideas?  Heīs so interested in the big world and moving around on the floor.  He wonīt concentrate on eating properly and then heīs both hungry and tired and blabla and again itīs difficult to get him to eat  .  Gosh itīs a mess!

I really do appreciate the good work you are doing here, helping helpless parents.  And I thank you from all of my heart!!!

-Snubu-

[deckchariot]

well it sounds like you are in a better place at the moment, so that's good!  And it is really hard - you don't just make it sound that way, I'm sure it really is that way  

So, it's not the length of his sleeping but the settling to sleep that seems to be the real issue now, right?  I would say to try increasing that A time again - at 5.5 - 6 mos, most los can do 2.25  - 2.5 hrs of A time.  He may just not be tired enough.  You said when you increased it to 2 hrs it helped sometimes, but not always, right?  I'd say try 2 hrs 15 min for at least 3 days and see if that helps.

In terms of pu/pd, it looks like you're doing it ok - the key is to put him down as soon as he stops crying (immediately) and lay him all the way down.  I always held Abby too long, so I never had success at it.  You're probably right that he's working himself hungry with all that screaming.

In terms of getting him to eat more - how many bottles a day is he getting(is it 4 day and 1 night)?  How many ounces?  When do you intend to start solids?

I'll check in later....Abby just woke up, so Ive got to run...hang in there!!!

michelle

[Snubu]

Hello, my friend!

Yes itīs the settling to sleep.  Yesterday I had a horrible headache and we decided with my husband that heīd use any AP to just get him to sleep.  He fell asleep in my husbands arms in just a few minutes and didnīt wake up when he was put in his bed.  It kind of makes me feel like a bad mom when I "torture" him with all that PU/PD even if he falls asleep so easily in daddys arms.

The eating is a bit of a mess right now.  Iīm still breast feeding but heīs not patient enough to eat from the breast.  I guess he understands that the bottle is a faster way to finnish a meal.  So, I try to breast feed 4 times a day and at least once or twice a day I give up and give the bottle straight away.  Even if we succeed in breast feeding, heīs cranky again in a half hour and tops up with 100-160 ml.  In the night when heīs basically asleep and my breasts are full of milk the feeding goes all right. This same thing happened with my daughter when she was 4 months.  Finally she refused the breast alltogether accept in the night.  I "night breast fed" in one month and then I quit.

We started on solids few weeks ago with a few tea spoons of potato or perry every now and then.  Now he eats potato, fruits or porridge every day at lunch, after milk.  And he loves it.  I just donīt want to increase the amount yet.  I want to take it slowly to see that his stomach can take it and that there are no allergies.

When it comes to the A time I now have a strategy:  I start putting him to bed as soon as he shows the first signs of tiredness no matter how long he has been up.  Maybe this is a good way to find out how long he is able to stay up. Sometimes itīs only 1.5 hours but sometimes, especially in the afternoon he is happy and content for even 3 hours  !  If he doesnīt fall asleep easily then I take him up, wait a while, give him a snack if itīs more than 3 hours from his last meal and then try again.  Maybe weīll figure out some routine again!

-Snubu-

[deckchariot]

Snubu - you have an excellent plan!!!!  Seriously, it's so nice to see you being really calm about it (or maybe that's just your post!).  That's the thing about EASY is that it's a flexible routine - even Abby has A times that vary greatly on any given day.  I really love your A time plan!!!

I just want to say that you are not a horrible mom for doing pu/pd.  You're trying to do what's best for your ds and help him to go to sleep on his own.  And it's ok to take a break and do AP when you're not feeling well.  Don't beat yourself up either way!

In terms of the bfing isssues - you may want to post on the bfing board and see what other moms have experienced.  I'm just guessing, but if you had similar problems with your first one, it may be a supply thing?  But I know there are other moms who have had similar issues.  I never had that problem with bfing Abby, so I can't comment on that.  Sorry.....

also, your approach with solids looks great too.  Really, you are doing a fabulous job.  I'm here to be your cheerleader and troubleshoot when you need it!  That's what's so great about these boards.  You are doing great!!!!

[Snubu]

Thanks a lot a lot  !

You really make me feel like the best mum ever.  And at times I am calm about this and sometimes I just want to jump on walls.  But itīs good to hear from outside that we are doing things right.  Some AP, I think, is good too.  It helps carrying on when itīs rough.  Besides, we donīt want to wake up one day an realize that we never let our kids fall asleep in our arms and they are teenagers and donīt want us anywhere near anymore!!!

-Snubu-

[deckchariot]

Snubu - I do think you're a great mom!!!!  Thanks for being so encouraging of me!!!  In my birth club, we have a phrase we like to use call AOPP (accidental on purpose parenting) - because sometimes - for your sanity and/or you lo's you just need to do it.  When you make a conscious decision to do it, it's ok - you know what you're doing, you know if make a habit of it, you'll have to break it, and you're ok with doing it (because really, most of the time, we only do it that once, then it's awhile before we do it again).  That's what I LOVE about BW - it's really all about knowing your bub and respecting what they need.  You are doing exactly that!  Sometimes it's just easier than others!  Believe me, we all have our moments when we just don't think we can do it anymore.

I think you're doing a wonderful job!!!  And I adore your avatar  - your bubs are super cute!!!

[Krissy18]

snubu- just lurking here..but how did you figure out your son was a 10 hour sleeper?
we were thinking that too for a bit cause ds was put to bed at 7/730 and was waking at 5/530 but how he is waking between 6/7 so im not sure any more. we would love for him to go to bed at 9, how did you stretch him??? our idea day would be wake at 7, bedtime at 8..right now bedtime is 720, thats the time he always falls asleep.

[Snubu]

Hi Krissy!

We didnīt stretch him, he did it himself. He used to fall asleep at 9 and sleep to about 7.  Suddelny he wouldnīt fall asleep at 9 but could still be happily babbling to his toes at 10.30.  Now he usually falls asleep at around 9.30 and wakes upe somewhere between 7 and 7.30. 

The easy thing with my kids is, that I never had to wean them from anything and all these sleep issues solve themselves when itīs time.  Maybe thatīs the reason why Iīm mostly so calm.  I know itīs just a rough time which will pass.  Yesterday and today have actually been a lot easier.  No more screaming and just a half an hour of fussing before falling asleep.  Thatīs great, isnīt it?!?

Thanks, Michelle, I know my kids are just adorable and perfect! We always wonder why with my husband since we both look pretty common.  Why do we get so beautiful kids?  But yours is a heartbreaker too, Michelle!!!

-Snubu-

[Snubu]

WE ARE BACK ON TRACK!!!

I really donīt know what was the actual reason for these rough weeks but hopefully they are over now.  It might have been a growth spurt because we were on a 3 hour feeding schedule for a few days.

Now we are back on a 4 hour routine.  And taking a 20 or 30 min catnap in the evening.  No PU/PD helped.  He just suddenly started falling asleep again as he used to.  So it was just a period.  A rpblem that sorted itself out. 

Letīs just hope that this continues!

Thanks for all help and support!

-Snubu-