help with nap transitions for our 4.5 month old

[pdx_mommy]

We've been helping our 4.5 month old with nap transitions for over a week.  How long should we plan to continue this and should we move on to wake-to-sleep? 

We go into her room at the 30 minute mark and put a hand on her chest as she starts to transition.  About 25% of the time she doesn't need help and easily transitions in the next sleep cycle.  About 25% of the time she needs some help with shh/pat and will go onto a 1.5 - 2.5 hrs of total sleep.  But about 50% of the time we are unsuccessful in the transition and she ends up with a 45 minute nap and 20-40 minutes of shh/pat. 

The next question is usually about our routine.  Ideally we are on a 4 hr EASY from 7am-7pm.  However, with her 45 minute naps it usually is E-A-S-A and looks like this:

E 6:30
A 7:00
S 8:30
A 9:15 (this is DDs most difficult nap, often unable to extend)
E 10:30
A 11:00
S 11:30
A 1:30
E 2:30
A 3:00
S 4:00
A 4:45
E 6:30
A 7:00 (bath)
S 7:30
E 10:30 (DF)

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. 

[Shaota]

First of all: WELCOME!!!

Second: Wow, that actually looks pretty darn good to me! I tried to get Josie onto a 4 hr EASY about a month ago & it went completely wonky. But, today I've been trying to see how she does by herself if I don't put her to bed too early. I've been going nuts-o trying to figure it all out.

I'm sorry I don't have much advice in the way of helping to extend the sleep. W2S didn't work for us except a few times, then she caught on & would wake up & get excited to see us, & then shh/pat wouldn't make her sleepy again, it just upsets her now, it seems. Then again, she still will only sleep swaddled & also we have her in a Tucker Sling because she has an elevated mattress to help with her reflux. So, you're lucky you don't have that hindrance, cause it seems when I want to sooth her, it makes it worse to have to undo the whole contraption. Anyway, question: does she wake and then cry, or does she seem happy, or maybe just still sleepy? If she's not crying, have you tried to just stand nearby & see if she'll put herself back to sleep? Sometimes I feel like I interfere too much, but, then again, I don't know what else to do either, except give her the paci (which I fear is becomming a prop but, at the time I just use whatever works so that she will get the sleep she needs, kwim?)

[brenda2]

welcome to BW!

it sounds like you are doing great trying to follow the 4 hour EASY and having some success with extending.  but i think your A times are a bit long for your LO.  she's  only  a little over 4 months old, and so 2 hours should be her MAX A time and that's after a good long nap.  even if she wakes early from a nap and you do EASAEAS the A time between naps should be no more than 2 hours.  in fact it should be less if she wakes early because short naps are not as restful.  some LOs at this age have a short morning A time...2 hours may be too long for her in the morning. 

when did you switch to a 4 hour routine and how long has her A times been this long?

also, her A time before bed is way too long.  following the catnap her A time should only be 1.5 hours max, maybe less.

i would do this:
6:30 E
8:15 - 10:30 S
10:30 E
12:30 -  2:30 S
2:30 E
4:30-5 or 5:30 S
bath
6 E
6:30 bed (1.5 hours max after she gets up from catnap)

how is she over night?

remember this is a flexible routine.  so if she wakes early from a nap you need to adjust her A time.  her A time following a long (over 1 hour) nap should be no more than 2 hours, and if she does a short nap you should put her back down to bed after 1 or 1.5 hours.  this may throw off EASY but just do your best to fit in feeds around the naps.

[pdx_mommy]

Thanks for your advice.  We've often tried to put her down earlier and limit her A time but then she really fights naps and wakes after 30 minutes, so I thought she was not ready to go down and/or undertired and she could tolerate longer A times?  We always watch her cues and start the wind-down with yawning or eye rubbing or fussiness. 

Our wind-down starts with walking around the house for 5 minutes, then up to her room for a diaper change, turn off the lights, close the blinds and sit in the chair for a few minutes with a binkie until eyes are closing, then to crib for tight swaddle.  About half of the time she needs a few minutes of shh/pat, but not always, and sometimes drifts off on her own.

Regarding night sleep... she sleeps until 6:00/6:30 about 70% of the time.  Other nights she'll wake up around 4am, babble (but not cry) for 20+ minutes until I can't stand it any more, then eat, then go back down.  Rarely she'll be up for an hour or more at night.  We've tried to put her down earlier in the evening with limited A time but this has no affect on her night wakings (I think it made them worse!). 

We are certainly open to more suggestions.  I think the main thing I've learned from scouring the boards is that we are doing the best we can...  even if she doesn't like to take longs naps all the time! 

[brenda2]

yes, it sounds like you are doing great.  i think if you just shorten your a  time a bit back to around 2 hours you'll have better luck with the naps.  try it for a few days or a week and see.  you have to be consistent with any routine change as it take them a bit to catch on and adjust.

you could try wake to sleep as well to extend the naps, with that you also have to do it for every nap for at least 3 days.

[pdx_mommy]

Thanks, we'll let you know how it goes with a decrease in A time. 

[Shaota]

So, true...welcome to the "doing the best we can club"! I'll check back to see how the reduced A time works for you. It didn't work for us, but, like they say: every lo is different. Also, you might also want to look at what she does during A time...do you think it could be her play Over Stimulating her? What kinds of toys made a real big difference on how she slept for us. Even still if we let her play too long at the wrong time in something too exciting, she can't wind down properly to sleep good...just a thought.

Good luck. *HUG!*

[brenda2]

i agree with shaota, we also had trouble getting LO to nap well if she had been too wound up prior to the nap.  and it's amazing how little can wind them up!  you could try a long wind down and less stimulating A time (fewer dangly things, less mom and baby groups etc)...

[pdx_mommy]

I think her new jump-a-roo could be a problem...  I'll limit when and how often she plays in it.  She just loves it - she bounces around and squeals in delight!  But it may be too much, especially right before naptime. 

If we have a shorter A time after a short nap, how does that affect the rest of the day?  Could you give me some idea of how that changes the routine?  If we're on a 4 hr EASY and she goes down 1 - 1.5 hrs after a short nap, do you feed before that nap, eventhough it has only been 3 hrs since her last feed?  Otherwise she may sleep through her next feed. 

6:30 E
8:00 - 8:45 S
? 10:00 S or E ?
and so on...   

Thanks

[brenda2]

i'd let her do the jumperoo right after she gets up for 15 min then do quieter things as she winds down to nap time.

i know the short naps screw up the routine and it can get frustrating - i've been there!  i always tried to fit in the feeds as best i could because the big thing for my LO was the amount of A time.  it all hinged on that for us.  if i was off by 15 min i missed the window and i'd get a short nap or a screaming baby who wouldn't go to sleep.  so i would feed early or split the feed on either side of the nap just to get it in and maintain my A time.  i didn't want her to wake early because she was hungry.

6:30 E
8-8:45 S  (you'd probably get a longer nap here if you extended her first A time...i would also try to put her right back down when she wakes with shh pat, especially if she's crying/cranky)
you could do S at 9:45 and see if she'll do another 45 min for you and put you back on track for 10:30 feed or if you don't think she'll go 4 hours yet between feeds do a feed at 9:45 and into bed straight after at 10.
 
i think it would depend on her cues.  if she's really cranky and fussing i would put her straight back to bed and feed afterwards.

[pdx_mommy]

She can definately go 4 hrs between feeds.  In fact, if we try to feed her between 3 and 4 hrs she often isn't hungry and takes a decreased amount.  As far as her cues...  we'll continue to watch carefully as she isn't cranky or fussy in general, even with a really long A time!  We'll give the shorter A time and less stimulation a try for the next few days and check back in with you all.  Thanks again for your help. 

[brenda2]

if she can go 4 hours between feeds i wouldn't think twice about putting her back down for another nap before her feed (2 sleeps in between feeds).  my DD was like that too - no sleep cues or fussiness even after a really long time and then bam OT and screaming baby.

[pdx_mommy]

Today was not a good nap day.  I think I just need some encouragement to continue with this plan for a while.  Here's how it went:

6:40 awake (no night wakenings)
7:00 eat
8:45 - 10:35 sleep...  yipeeeeee! 
11:00 eat
12:30 - 1:15 sleep
2:20 attempted nap...  gave up after 20 min shh/pat
2:45 eat
3:15 - 3:55 sleep
5:40 attempted nap... gave up after 20 min shh/pat
6:30 eat, bath, pj's, top up, to bed
7:45 sleep... woke at 8:30 and back down after replug paci and brief shh/pat
will DF at 10:30

So she is on the same routine as previous as she refused two naps.  Today we limited activity with jumparoo at beginning of A time and less stimulation.  Takes at least 3 days to start sorting out, right??? 

[Shaota]

Awwww, Kelley, I'm so sorry you've had a rough nap day, here's a big HUG!!! for you.

Just want to say I've been there, done that (like ALL last week or so!!!), and was so discouraged & out of my mind about it...so I understand how it feels. I wish I could wave a magic nap wand and make these things go much smoother. Unfortunately, it seemed to take a little more than the 3 days for it to change for us, but, I think my depression had a lot to do with it. Still, although it seems a bit better this week, the only thing I'm thinking I can count on with naps is that it will never be perfect & may never even be consistent. That's ok, though, doesn't make us bad moms and won't hurt your LO, although I know it's frustrating. I still think it's impressive you have her on a 4 hr EASY, so at least you're doing well in that department for the eating. I haven't been able to get her to the 4 hour EASY, but, today was closer than ever before. I think if this could continue for us, her eating might get better, cause her intake has been decreesing, and I'm not sure if I should worry yet. As far as naps go, though, for some reason (that I can't put a for sure finger on), this week has actually been better for naps, though. I'm thinking it was because before we had her on too little A time because her naps were being 30 min meaning OT, so I shortened it, and that just ended up with her fighting naps & became a nightmare to try to get her to sleep. When I lengthened the A time again & this time stuck with it for a few days (but, still watching her cues of crankiness), and do a bit more wind down, it seems to be working better. They say 40 min naps are UT...and it seems like lo's can handle a bit more A time in the afternoons, so maybe try upping it 5 more mins of A time for 3 days at a time and it might help? Also, I wonder about the times you wrote that she only took 45 min naps, did you try to extend when she woke, or did you get her up & then try for a nap again where you wrote "attempted nap"?

[brenda2]

hey!  i think you had a pretty good day actually.  you got one great nap!! 

i agree with shaota actually, for the 2nd nap she probably wasn't  quite tired enough, that's why it was only a 45 min nap.  she did 2 hours 5 min first thing which was perfect, resulting in a long nap...but the first A time is sometimes the shortest (always is for us)  so you could have tried 2 hours 15 min or so for the 2nd nap (instead of 1 hour 55 min) especially since it was after such a great nap.  which may have allowed her to sleep a little longer.  kwim?

it's ok, stick with it.  you're just trying to figure it all out.  it does take time.  write down her A times and how long she sleeps afterwards, that'll help to keep track of it.  you'll get there!