early waking from nap - let baby self-soothe or use PU/PD?

[dsokos]

Hello,

My 4mo is a short napper (surprise!) and I tried w2s, and it didn't work this time. she woke up and often can soothe herself back to sleep within 15 minutes.  This past nap she did not.  She was crying (mantra I'm pretty sure) and doing her self-soothing talk.  But she was doing this for 1.5 hrs!  She fell asleep during this time for a minute here and there, but never completely back to sleep.  I soothed her with my voice a couple of times too.  (pat- shhh doesnt' work for her - it's too stimulating) Should I have used PU/PD or continue to self-soothe?  Of note, at the 4 hr mark, she quit trying to go to sleep and was playing waiting for me!  We ate and she's fine...getting ready to wind down for next nap.  Thanks!

[brenda2]

if she's crying you can do pu/pd or soothing with voice, whatever works for her.  pu/pd may also be too stimulating so you may need to modify to fit her.  if mantra crying then let her be but as soon as she escalates you should go in to help her.  1.5 hours of this is a bit long IMO though, that would be past when she should have finished her nap, no?  when doing pu/pd or other techniques to help go to sleep you should do it for 45 min and then take a break. 

are the naps 30 min (OT) or 45 min (UT)...is she having too long A times or is she possibly ready for longer A time?  that may help you to get longer naps?  if you post your routine i'll take a look.

[dsokos]

Okay, here's what we did yesterday.  Generally, a good day. (note - the night before she has 3 NW - all of which she soothed herself back to sleep)  Also, we have only been doing EASY for 13 days..she's adapted beautifully. 
6:55 E
7:25 A
8:45 S
9:25 awake - this is where she was trying to soothe herself for so long
11:00 E
11:27 A
12:38 S (she fell asleep here in 3 minutes!  I used w2s here [touched her legs] and it worked)
2:30 awake
2:45 E
3:20 A
4:40 S
5:22 woke up A
6:44 E
7:30 S

Generally, she does 1hr to 1 20 min of A time (this includes up to the minute she falls asleep).  Her naps vary.  sometimes I can extend them, other times not.  I would say that most would hit the 45 minute mark.  I can usually extend one nap per day with her.  Thanks!
I just thought of something....if she wakes up early from her nap, does that become A time?  If yes, how does that factor in to the time to next nap because E comes in between there.  Confused, sorry.

[brenda2]

hi

if she's soothing herself back to sleep and you don't have to get out of bed, i'd classify that as sleeping through the night!!  so well done.    at 4 months that's fantastic to not need a night feed and to be able to put herself back to sleep.  she's doing just great!

ok, i think she's taking short naps for you in the morning because she's UT, certainly for the first nap yesterday i think that was it...then as the day goes on her A times are too long so may be OT which also causes short naps.  at 4 months the A time should be more like 2 hours.  every minute they're not asleep is A time.  so if she wakes early from a nap that's A time until she falls asleep again for the next nap.  if she does a short nap which is not as restful you will need to shorten the following A time to avoid OT.  if you fiddle with the A times a bit it may help the short naps.

yesterday's A times were 1 hour 50 min (a touch too short resulting in a short nap), then 3 hours 10 min (too long after a short nap but she did do a long nap here...  ), then 2 hours 10 min (this is about right), then 2 hours 10 min after catnap (this is too long for last A time, it should be 1.5 hours max).

she is eating every 4 hours which is great.

i would aim for a 2 hour A time first thing, then 2 hours 10 min if she does a long nap, but only 1 hour 45 min if it's short.

a 4 hour EASY looks like this:
7 E
9-11 S
11 E
1-3 S
3 E
5-5:45 S
7 E
7:15 bed

sometimes by fiddling with the A times you will get long naps, but you can also continue trying w2s if you like.

HTH

[dsokos]

Thanks for the advice.  Your questions prompted me to think about the possibility of UT or OT.  She just always seems so sleepy in the morning.  Maybe I need a little more stimulating activity.  I tend to keep it really low key in the morning.  Now I see why she fell asleep in 2-3 minutes for her second nap the last two days...she's been exhausted (most other times it's ~15 minutes).  I'll see what happens tomorrow. 

2 more questions:
1.  on the 4 hr EASY the last feed at 7pm...why is it that bedtime is only 15 minutes later?  A feed takes ~20-30 minutes plus burp time, so it's at least 7:30 before I can get her to bed.  Am I missing something here?
2.  w2s - when I attempt this, is it recommended that I stir her before she ever moves or after her first move?  I wasn't successful today with waiting for her to move first.  I'm not sure I've found the right thing to do for her.  Rubbing her cheek worked once, but so did touching her legs once when she jerked. 

thanks again.

[brenda2]

hi
after the catnap she should be in bed asleep max 1.5 hours after she wakes.  so if it takes you 30 min to feed and burp, plus time to fall asleep then you plan accordingly.  maybe do bath at 6:00 followed by feed at 6:30 and in bed at 7 allowing 15 min for her to fall asleep?  sorry i forgot at 4 mo it can take quite a while to eat!

w2s, you should do it before she ever stirs, bringing her just out of a deep sleep but not waking her up so that she can transition into another sleep cycle.  i think there is a sticky in the FAQ on technique for this.  sometimes stroking their cheek, or hair or belly will work.

[dsokos]

Well, today was a really good nap morning!  I thought of something else that was probably impacting those short naps...she nearly always fell asleep during nursing for the first feed and I let her.  Not today! I also did w2s as you recommended and she slept 1.5 hrs!  yeah!

new questions.  She still fell asleep for her first nap in about 3 minutes, so when she woke up it was 55 minutes until the next feed.  I know now that this is A time, but that really messes up the rest of the day/routine.  She tried to return to sleep (she was so sleepy!), but couldn't get herself down and my soothing didn't help either. She did catnap during the next feed though (maybe for 10 min total - couldn't keep her awake).  So, when counting time to the next nap, when do you start?  If it's from when she woke up from her nap, the routine would be to sleep right after feeds I think.  I'm so confused!   

Here is what today has looked like:
6:40 awake
6:52 E
7:25 A
8:30 S
9:55  awake
10:52 E (with some S in there)
11:22 A
12:40 S

Going to try w2s again and hope it helps her.  I think she was way OT for this last nap.  still working out the kinks.  Thanks again

[brenda2]

   yay for a good morning nap!

yes, avoid at all costs having her fall asleep for naps while feeding or during a feed.  the suck to sleep association is so strong it can be very hard to overcome.  so if she starts to fall asleep while eating take her off,  undo her clothes, a cold wet cloth on her back etc, anything to wake her up and let her finish the feed!!  and don't let her have a nap after falling asleep while feeding.

the first nap looked great. 1.5 hours, perfect!    i know that throws it off a bit though since she is only doing 2 hours A time.  i think since she's just 4 months it's ok to feed after 3.5 hours if this happens until she can handle a bit longer A time or is sleeping longer for her nap.  my DD was almost 5 months before she was on a true 4 hour EASY, sometimes bubs need to do a 3.5 hour EASY for a bit until they truly transition.

today, i'm sure she was OT by the 2nd nap because the A time was 2 hour 45 min, which is too long just now.  hopefully she'll still do a long nap for you!

so today maybe you should have tried:
6:40 awake
6:50 E
8:30-10 S
10:20 E
12- (hopefully 2) S

does that make sense?

it'S hard when they either don't sleep long enough or don't stay awake long enough to stay on the 4 hour EASY, but remember it's a flexible routine , not a schedule.  so just do the best you can to fit in the naps and feeds.  and i think counting  A time is the way to go, it certainly was with my DD.

[dsokos]

This is working!!     The afternoon nap was 1hr 35 minutes (using w2s)!  So continuing from above, today was:

12:40 S
2:15 awake
2:45 E
3:20 A
4:30 S
5:30 awake
6:29 E
7:10 S  (still need to tweak this one to get to sleep a little earlier)

When she wakes up from her naps, I think she is still sleepy based on her behavior.  She looks so tired, mantra cries, and rubs her eyes, so I hope to extend them to 2 hrs.  I'm thinking that I'll have to do w2s twice per nap? How long after the first w2s do I go in to do the second one?  I'm thinking 30 minutes or so.

I'll try the 3.5 hr, but I'm not sure she will eat early (and she's doing so well on 4 hr). It's funny, if feeding is a little early and she's not hungry yet, she just stops after a few minutes.  It's almost like she realizes that she's eating, but isn't hungry, so she stops.   I think counting the A time will help us.

I haven't figured out how to show appreciation yet on this site, but thank you a million times for your advice.  It's helped us tremendously!

[brenda2]

   you're welcome, i'm so happy it's working!!  remember it takes time for a routine change to really make a difference, so keep being consistent, and you may get a regression in a few days, also continue to be consistent and it will work itself out.

today sounds like you did a great job and had perfect naps!!  well done! 

if feeding every 4 hours works for her then continue with that and just count the A times.  counting A times really worked for us, even if the feed times were off and i wasn't necessarily feeding her right upon waking.

i did try w2s twice in a nap...i think it worked out that you'd go in about the same time after the first w2s as you did at the start of the nap...and this would be about 10 min or so after they would have woken up had your first w2s not worked.  kwim?  so if she usually does 45 min naps...and she fell asleep at 1 pm you'd do your first w2s at 1:25 or 1:30 and your second at 1:55 or 2 or something like that.  you have to fiddle with the timing...sounds like you have it right for your naps now though so continue with that.

 

[clairemk88]

dsokos... just to give some encouragement - my lo is also 4 mo and I've been working for a few wks to extend her 45m naps and for the past few days I've begun to see my hard work pay off... y'day she took a 1h 15m nap and a 1h 35m nap and today she's taken a 1h 30m nap - all thanks to keeping a close eye on her A time and W2S, which I do at 35m and then about 22-23m later and then again 22-23m later... as many times as I can to extend it!

When I first started doing W2S I used to do it at 30m and it never seemed to work as she'd wake at the 45m mark. Earlier than that and it would wake her. So then I discovered 35m was the key. Then I had to work on when the next W2S was best. The FAQ suggested 25m after the 1st W2S but I was finding if I left it this long she'd wake up bang on 1h... as early as 20m and it would wake her.

So I guess in a rather long winded way what I'm trying to say is... that is seems to be all about the tweaking Best of luck!

[dsokos]

Thanks Claire. This is really hard work!  It will be worth it in the end...both of us will be more rested.   
Another question for Brenda....if I work around her A time and she has a short nap, does that mean that bedtime comes earlier?  Had a 45 min nap this afternoon...  One tiny question..still learning all of the abbreviations..what is kwim?
thanks again!

[brenda2]

kwim - know what i mean!

if she does a short nap the following A time will be shorter (less than 2 hours for sure).  so this will mean either more naps in a day or earlier bedtime.

[dsokos]

Got it!  Thanks again.