10month old and afternoon naps /EW's

[elliejane]

Hi

Not sure you remember me or not but I have posted twice her before once for 45mins naps and once for 30mins naps combined with constant night waking. Both times you helped me resolve them. I have a new problem which is not as bad as the other ones. My son who will be 10mths old has started to really fight his pm nap and also waking very early now. Not complaining too much as he used to wake every 90mins in the night so this is much better

He goes to bed at 7 and wakes 530 . However one day this week it was 445!!! Today was 615 which is fine. Anything after 6 I can handle. However it is the pm nap that is theproblem getting him to go for one without a major fuss. He goes to sleep quite well in the am cries or mantra for 5 mins or so then drops off but this pm took me 40mins to get him to sleep. I do not think it is overtired as I know that signs now and he is sleeping well in am nap. Any suggestions?  He cannot be ready for just one nap can he??

Thanks

Ellie

[deckchariot]

well.....it sounds like the 2 to 1 switch Ellie.  The challenge is that you're right, he's not really ready for 1 nap, but 2 is becoming a challenge....here's a link that should help shed some light on how to approach things - so have a look and then see if you can come up with a plan to navigate things and we'll help you along...

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=95670.0

hth
michelle

[elliejane]

Hi

I have read this and think this is probably my issue no1 and no3 fits exactly what it happening this past week.

 However the past 2 days he has woken at 515 approx and I gave him his am bottle instead of trying to get him back to sleep with no milk etc. I  laid him right back down and left the room after his milk he was still awake but drowsy . He fussed afew mintues both days and went to sleep till 7. (I woke him at 7 as not sure how long he would sleep otherwise) so now thinking maybe he is hungry and waking early for milk. HE is a big baby . This waking at 7 though means he is not tired until 1030/11 and now fusses going down for am sleep as well the past 2 days also!!!. Took me 20mins yesterday and 10 today with back rubbing to get him off. Before as assume he was tired went down faster as been up earlier. Then he sleeps from 11 till 1230/45 . He will not go down anythign shorter than 3.5 to 4 hours after last sleep which means 430 yesterday. Took him for walk at 3 as thought maybe he would sleep better on walk walked for over an hour and just no way tired at all. Eventually got him to sleep at 445 which is way too close to bed time so only let him sleep15mins. Feel it is all going a bit of a mess.  Before this past 10days I had it all sorted sleeps at 10 till 1130 and 245 till 4ish. Down at 7 now it is all gone wrong. Would not worry so much but he starts nursery week after next and they are asking his routine as just now he does not have one with sleep and is fighting it.  Suppose just have to let them get him to sleep and not stress too much. Wish this 2-1 transisiton was over but have  good few months on it yet. Will try giving him supper to see if I can get him to go till 6. If I can he can get up then and will be tired by 10 etc and moe likely to take pm sleep!!!!!! This 5am waking is the issue I think!!! knocking everything else out. Any suggestions?? apart from more food.

Another thing he also has no teeth yet but today I think I can see tip of one on the bottom gum but not sharp yet and 2 on tops gums so I think teething is also mixed up with all the other factors. So could be food, teething and 2-1 sleep all  in one!! The joys
He is much more clingy in the day as well just now and has right runny nose but do not think it is a cold. Knew this would happen whenI go back to work

Ellie

[deckchariot]

Ellie - teething will absolutely screw things up!  I've had good luck with Hylands teething tablets.  I would caution you about giving him milk when he wakes at 5 - he'll come to expect that and that's the last thing you want

Can you post your full EASY routine?  I might be able to make some suggestions then on coordinating food and naps during the transition - we just went through that with my dd.  It generally takes a couple months to work through the whole transition.  We chose the option to let her am nap go as long as she wants, and then offer a catnap in the evening.  If she refused her catnap, I moved her bedtime earlier.  Some parents limit that first nap to 45 min (no more than 1 hr) and have a longer pm nap.  Then the idea is that the am nap moves later (and thus closer to the pm nap) and the short nap becomes shorter until it disappears.

So why don't you post your EASY routine and we'll go from there.....

[elliejane]

Hi

Thanks for the reply yes things have gone very wrong. I think when he wakes up at 5 he really is hungry as try as I can I cannot get him back to sleep and he drains his bottle. His stomach is rumbling and churning as well. Trying to up the food intake inthe day and add an extra ounce to his bed bottle today. You asked for routine it has not been the same each day for a while. This is what he used to do (2 weeks ago) and this is what he did if I got him up at 530 and fed him up and this is what he does if I leave him to go back to sleep after his milk ie feed him in dark thenput him down. Neither of last 2 are great at all but want to get back to my perfect one and need help. He has also starting night waking now past 2 nights although he def is teething so maybe that is why

My perfect routine

Wake 615/630 bottle 7oz
Breakfast 8 solids
First nap 10 till 1115 ish
Lunch 12
Some milk from cup 100 to 130
2nd nap about 245ish last about 45misn before to an hour
Tea 5 and
Finally bed at 7 (slept till 615)

That is what I want to get back too or some thing like it

Then 2 weeks ago it changed waking up earlier and earlier

Wake 530 bottle 7oz (kept him up)
Breakfast 7
Sleep 9/30 for about 2hrs till 1130 (as up early slept ages in am)
lunch 12
Milk 100/130
Nap 230/245 for about 45mins to hour (struggled to get him down sometimes but much better than he is now)
Tea 5
Bed 7

Only problem was early waking

Now past 5 days

Wake 5ish now milk 7oz and goes back to sleep till 7 (I wake him at 7)
Breakfast 8
Will not go for nap until 1030/45 at earliest and sleeps only 45mins
 lunch 12
Milk 1/130
Nap will not go before 330 and even then fights it till 4 (sleeps 45mins or I wake him up if coming close to 5)
Tea 5
Bed 7 (struggles to go as well as before)
Then wakes early again

Where have I gone so wrong with last routine it is nightmare struggle to go down for allnaps and night waking and EW

IF I can get him to sleep till nearer 6 I think things will go back on track

By the way he woke at 415 this am and I left him 45mins not crying just muttering and whinging and I finally had to feed him at 515 as no way was he goign back to sleep.

Any ideas what to try last routine is the one I am on just now.

Thanks

Ellie

[deckchariot]

I would say at 10 mos, you can give him some more solids - like a snack before his first nap, and dinner between tea and bedtime (I'm in the US and a dolt at this, but tea is more like a snack than a full meal, right?).  So let's take your "perfect routine" and see if we can work with that - I think if you can get some more food in him during the day, you can eliminate that EW (at least an EW from hunger).  Adding more milk to his bedtime bottle is a fantastic idea as well.

So maybe work towards this:

6/6:30 - awake and milk (7 oz like usual)
8 - breakfast (like usual)
9:30/10ish - snack  - maybe yogurt, fruit or some toast with cheese (I try a dairy snack here with my dd - ever since she gave up that milk feed - she has toast and milk usually here)
10:30 - nap (since it looks like when he's up at 7 and down at 10:30/10:45, you get a 45 min nap, that looks like he can  handle closer to 4 hrs of A time)
12/12:30 - whenever he wakes - lunch
1:30 - milk (your usual here)
3:30ish - snack (could that be tea?)
4ish - nap
5ish -when he wakes - eat dinner
7 - bottle and to bed

that's 2.5 hrs day sleep total and 11 hrs at night, which seems about right (he could probably be ok with more).  It's also 3 milk feeds and 5 "meals" a day - 3 full meals and 2 snacks - so that should be plenty of food.  I'm guessing eventually, that after lunch milk feed will just absorb into the afternoon snack.  When you drop a milk feed, you can always replace it with a dairy snack - and once he's a year old, you can just give him milk in a cup with his snack. 

If you seem to have the best luck with that first nap of the day, then let him sleep as long as he wants then, and keep that late pm nap to under 1 hr.  Then gradually push that am nap later and shortening the pm nap until he no longer needs that pm nap. 

If the am nap is not his best, then keep that one short (no more than an hour) and let him sleep longer in the afternoon - then gradually move that morning nap later and keep cutting it shorter til he just takes on nap in the afternoon.

I found with Abby that if she can handle 5 hrs of A time, she can go on a 1 nap day.  If he takes a good am nap but refuses the pm nap, just put him to bed earlier.  Keep in mind that during the transition, you'll have some 2 nap days and some 1 nap days - it drove me nuts, but once I learned to be more flexible, it was much better

does that help?

[elliejane]

Thanks for much for your reply. Have not  been online much. Things not really got any better with the extra food but I must keep trying it as it maybe take time. He is still waking 530ish . I have not fed him and got him back to sleep the past 3 days just left him till nearer 6 then got him up and give him milk then.  Past 2 days he has had signs of tiredness till about 930 ie 4hrs after he got up going to sleep about 945 till 1145 then I am struggling to get a nap before 4. Trying him at 330 is no use and even in buggy for walk or out in car he does not sleep till after 4. Sleeps 30mins which is all he needs thne fine

I think he is def transitioning from 2 to 1 sleep but still needs that 30mins at 4ish. Down at 7 but past few times that is getting struggle as well as he has only had A time of 2.5hrs!!

Finding juggling this new sleeps hard . WAs later to bed last night ie 8 and still got up at 530!!  Been about 3 weeks now and only had two am waking past 6

He is also teething though and cut his first tooth on Friday.

Should I cut back the pm sleep to 15mins or so and just wake him after 15mins.

He is sleeping about 2.5hrs in the day and 10.5 at most at night. However Grant has never slept that much in day in past been a 45mins napper  in past and then I got that sorted he did 45mins one nap and 1hr 15 or so the other so this nap times is longer than he normally has in day but less night sleep

is it possible he only needs 13hrs sleep  a day including night and whatever we do it will be that is more at night less in day etc etc

he is not sleeping yet and went down about 715 tonight. just chatting away but think it is turning into a cry now.
Struggle to go to sleep at night as well as pm now!!

Ellie

[deckchariot]

I've not been on much either (out of town with sporadic computer access...), so no worries....bummer that you're still having EWs...it may sort out as you keep going.  Reading over your last post, you may be right that 2.5 hrs of day sleep is just too much for him.  If you're having trouble getting him down at 4, I'd say maybe shave 15 min off that first nap, try to put him down at 3:30 and see if he'll take a quick catnap then to get him through til bedtime.  By shortening the first nap a bit, he'll be ready to go down a bit earlier for the 2nd nap.  And if he doesn't take a catnap, try early bedtime.  He may be on the lower end of sleep, and you can adjust his routine to fit that.  You certainly would like to see him shift that day sleep to sleep a bit longer at night.

You may want to pop in on the 2 to 1 support thread as well  - the more ideas from more moms the better - sometimes it just helps to see what other moms are doing - especially other moms who's bubs have similar sleep patterns to you.

Hang in there - this is hard!

[brenda2]

i only read this thread today...we are having the same EWs with avery now - she's 10 mo also and waking between 5:15 and 5:45 most mornings.  driving me crazy!  i have been doing the long morning nap, short afternoon catnap (with the idea of pushing it later and later) for about 2 weeks and still the EWs.  she is doing about 10 hours night sleep and 2 hours 45 min in the day.  maybe i need to cut the catnap even shorter    ahhh and i thought i had it all figured out then they go and change again!

[elliejane]

Hi Brenda and Michelle

Things are not better with the early wakings in fact worseI think. Any more ideas? Have tried total black out of room so it is def not dark and do not think it is hunger. He woke this am at 5 and I tried and tried to get him back to sleep as he starts nursery full day today as I am back at work next week. Finally go thim to sleep at 6 (had to feed him though but that made no difference - fed him 530) One thing is last while he has done a massive poo about waking time. Also had very unsettled sleep last night. Could that be it

Tried cutting back his am nap but no difference at all so just leaving it so I can at least get some peace. Dreading nursery today as scared he will not sleep or eat. HE is also teething just now and meal times are also difficult

Any help

[brenda2]

hugs.  nursery and teething and dropping naps all at once.  poor little bub!

we have had some progress and avery is now waking between 6:30 and 7:30 am (instead of 5 am).  today was 7 am on the nose.  what i did was extend the morning A time as long as possible (it vaires a lot but seems to be between 3.5 and 5 hours) and let her sleep as long as she likes for this one and then do a short catnap (depending on how long first nap was and how late it is in the evening, anywhere from just 20 min to over an hour if morning nap wasn't that long), and then put to bed a bit later (between 7 and 8pm).  also i have been more consistent with walk in walk out, if it's sleepy time she's going to sleep (i was taking her out and trying later and she was getting used to this inconsistency i think).  so after a few days of this she had a sleep in to 7:30...on this day she just didn't seem like she was tired in the morning and we ended up with only 1 very long nap (3 hours) in the middle of the day and early bedtime, the next day 2 naps , the next day only 1 nap as she woke late again.  so in the last week we've had 2 1 nap days and mostly wake ups between 6:30 and 7:30.

so maybe try to stretch out that first A time and see if that helps.  i think she was getting too much daytime sleep and it was causing the EWs...also, her night sleep when she was getting too many naps dropped to 10 hours.  now with fewer naps/sleep she's back to 11.5 to 12 hour nights.  yesterday she had 2.5 hours day sleep and 12 hours at night.

tough when they are teething...

hope that helps you

[elliejane]

Hi there everyone

Still not getting this EW resolved and now I have another issue which is he fights going down now at night as well as pm sleep. Only one he does not fight much is the am one as he is tired from waking at 530 each day!!!
.
I have tried to extend the am A time and let him sleep as long as he wanted then do short nap of 30mins in pm. Both yesterday and today he woke at 530 which was only 10hrs night sleep at most.

this is what I did

Woke 530

Down at 945 approx. Yesterday he slept over 2hrs and today about 1hr 45mins at most so waking about 12ish. Next sleep was a battle and we got him to sleep on a walk about 4ish till 430 (4hrs A time will not go any earlier than that). Then tried to get him down at 7/730 and major fuss ( is this because only 2.5/3 hours A time). I think he is getting ready to go to one nap a day but problem is he is waking so early that he needs am nap early then really cannot last from 12 till 7 with no pm nap!!! it is a nightmare just now. Should I cut pm nap to 20mins or what??

Also as I said he is teething and he has started nursery 3 days a week so this is all affecting him as well .  Last week was trial week at nursery which was not good. Next week if for full days. I am dreading it as I know they will never get him down for his pm sleep at all. He struggled with his am sleep as well this trial week . He is not very settled yet and refusing also to eat of a spoon for them wil only eat finger food (however he is also bit fussy with me at home but I work at it more they will not have time to do tricks etc i do).

Some other info he has a cold as well and has woke up about 1hrs after being asleep past 3 nights in row with blocked nose then seems ok till am apart from odd cry out in night

Do I just give up tweaking this naps as nursery will not do same as me anyway and just ride out the  next 3/4mths with difficult 2-1 transition or keep trying on the 4 days he is at home to work it out.  He is really good when awake just now so cannot complain . Just 530 each am is killing me just now. However it was much worse earlier this year with constant night wakign so suppose have to be thankful

Will let you know what happens tomorrow. he surpising went down ok tonigth at bed time . Put him down at 7ish and he chatted away then went into mantra cry when I was typing this and then silence (others night has turned into screaming match) so bit of good news !!

Brenda/Michelle  or anyone else - Any ideas on the naps etc???

Ellie

[brenda2]

hugs...sounds awful...

i would cut the pm nap even shorter, or go with slightly later bedtime until you get the EWs resolved.  when we had that trouble a few weeks ago her catnap was very short and in the sling a few days because she just was fighting it so hard.  have no idea what that was about because now we're back to normal - sorry it wasn't just a phase for you too 

anyway you can get him back down in the morning?  a few of the EWs i had i brought her into bed and one morning got her to sleep until 7:30 on top of me...that was kind of the turning point because then she had a normal day and a normal bedtime and since then things have been back on track...just an idea.  AP i know but it worked.

[elliejane]

thanks

Today has been bizarre so far. He woke later 6 this am so about 30 to 45minsmins later and was in bed 30mins earlier. Put him down at 10ish for his am nap. Would normally sleep about 1hr 30mins to 2hrs . Today he has woken after 30mins. Does not seem tired. What is that all about? Is it because he slept 11hrs approx last night instead of the 10 hours in past month. It is all going wonky not sure what he will do this pm now. Probablyn will only another 30mins!!! He does have a cold so maybe that is it. Think just going to have to go with it and accept fact his naps are all over place just now. Nursery will be even worse tomorrow

I do find though if he sleeps less at night he sleeps more in day and vice versa so maybe he is always going to be a 12.5/13hr sleeper regardelss of day or night. I know 30misn naps are overtired but today he has slept the most he has done in ages during night and went down at much same time for his nap so looks more like under tired to me!!

The joys

Ellie

[elliejane]

Hi

Need help again. Not only do we have EW now but we have the 30mins naps back again!!! I know this is overtired but how do I fix it. Not changed anything in his routine but he has started nursery 3 days a week. 30mins naps started a week ago out of the blue see posting above this one and have carried on.

He does have really bad cold though and wondering if that is waking him ie not breathing properly when sleeping chocked up. Also teething.

Any help?