EASY routine for 3.5 mo needs help!

[lidiayy]

  Hi,

  My LO is 15 wks now and she's been on 3.5 EASY for a couple of weeks. Since last sunday, she's been waking at different times a day. On monday, for the first time, she slept from 9 pm to 7 am. On Tuesday and Wednesday, from 9 to 5 am. Today she woke at 6 am. No more routine!!
  Until last sunday, our routine was something like:

   E: 7 am
   A: 7.15 - 8.20 + wind down
   S: 8.30 - 10.30
   E: 10.30
   A: 10.45 - 12.00
   S: 1.30 - 2 pm (she normally fights this nap  )
   E: 2.00 pm
   A: 2.15 - 3.30 pm
   S: 3.30 - 5.30 pm
   E: 5.30 pm
   A: 5.45 - 7.30 pm
   S: 7.30 - 8.30
   8.30 - bath, PJ's feed
   9.00 - bed
   4 - 5 am - feed
   7 am - start the day

   When she woke at 5 am, I didn't want to feed her because her pedi said that we should avoid feeding in intervals of less than 2.5 hrs, but she was clearly hungry and I didn't want to wake the whole house with her crying. So I fed her at 5 am and then again at 7.30 and started the day, making adjustments for the bedtime not to go over 9 pm (which lots of you've said that it's too late for her age).
   Today she woke up at 6 am and I fed her and put her in crib again. She slept until 9 am. I'm trying to push her to wait until 10, so that we can start moving to 4 hrs EASY, but I have to confess, all this mess is making me crazy (and so my breasts - they don't know when to produce BM for the baby).
   I would like to keep bath and bedtime near to 8 pm because otherwise, DH is not going to see DD, only on weekends and I think it's not good.
   Can anybody give me suggestions on how to tweak her routine?
   BTW, she is a good napper, yesterday we packed 1 2 1/2 hr + 30 min (we went out) + 2 hr + 30 min (until 8 pm - bath time). But she had difficulties in settling down for bedtime.

   TIA

    Lidia

[brenda2]

if bedtime is 9 pm then awake time in the morning should be around 9 am, which is what she did the day you posted sounds like so that's good.  i agree 9 pm is too late usually, certainly if awake time is 7 am, but if you are doing a 12 hour day of 9 to 9 then it should be ok.

it's best to wait to switch to a 4 hour EASY until they can do close to 2 hours A time.  if you can extend her first A time bit by bit you may be close to getting there.  until then you may be feeding at 3.5 hours or 3 hours 45 min...

i think she is fighting that second nap because the A time is way too long before it.  the routine you posted had 1.5 A time first , then a 3 hour A time.  this is too long.  often the first A time is short, so i'm not surprised it's only 1.5 hours now, but then you should be aiming for no longer than 2 hours A time after this.   this is probably why she's fighting thsi nap and why  she only slept for 30 min - she was OT.

if she has difficulties settling for bedtime it's probably because she's OT by the time bedtime comes.  switching to a 12 hour day with better naps is going to help this.

[lidiayy]

  Hi Brenda2,

  Thanks for your answer! Actually, things have been changing since I've posted this thread. After that, she could STTN for 2 times and then I think a GS got us. I'm not sure about this, but she is taking longer feeds during the day (although I've been having difficulties on BF'ing her) and she has been waking at 4 am to feed again. One step forward, two steps back (sigh) 

  I'm very flexible in terms of watching the clock, so sometimes I feed her in 3.5 hrs or 3 h 45 min, depending on her naps. I'm trying to extend her feedings to 4 hrly but she is clearly not ready for that. She can't manage more than 1.5 hr of 'A' and can't wait longer than 3 h 45 min feeds.

  The first nap, I've realized that if I put her down after 1 hour that she woke up, she would sleep for 2.5 hrs. If I put it off 10 minutes, she would sleep for 45 min, wake, resettle again and sleep for 30 or 45 min. (no good) 

  I'm still trying to figure out her magic 'A' times. I've seen that you wrote in other posts that LOs learn how to take naps from 3 - 6 months. During this period, can they "forget" what they have learnt? I mean, if she managed to sleep independantly (self soothing, w/o paci), would she regress? Sorry for the silly question... I keep thinking and thinking while battling this short nap monster.

   Thanks once again.

   Lidia     

 
   

[brenda2]

STTN!  yay!

sounds like you are on the right track.  being flexible and watching for her cues is what BW is all about.  good for you!  she'll get to a 4 hour EASY when she's ready.  for us it was 4.5 mo, maybe closer to 5 mo before she could really do 2 hours A time especially fro that first A of the day which seems to be short for a lot of LOs.

sounds like you are figuring out the magic A number...but remember it can change throughout the day and depending on how long the nap is.  often the first is short.  my DDs middle A time was always the longest, but for some it's the last A time.  so just keep watching her.  and if you get a short nap then you have to shorten the A time.

usually once they learn to fall asleep independently they'll come back to that.  so i mean if you went travelling or she was sick and you did some AP then usually it's not too hard to get them back to what they were doing before .  much easier than teaching it to a baby who never knew how to go to sleep independently.  is that what you meant?  just stay consistent...

[lidiayy]

Hi Brenda,

Thanks! BW isn't that easy, huh? 

Seems like my LO has been playing tricks on me. Today, due to a long discussion with DH  (he is not that supportive when it's re BW and Tracy's method), I decided to let my LO decide when she wants to eat. She's been doing 4 hrly!!! 

Now I've got myself a little lost because I don't know what is going to happen next (or when).

I woke her up at 7.30 am and fed. She played for almost 45 min and then slept for 2.5 hrs. She woke up again at 11.30 and ate. Played until 12.40 and slept until 3.30 pm. She ate again and now she's been sleeping for almost 45 min. Is this OK if she sleeps for 2.5 hrs instead of 1.5 to 2 hrs in a 4 hrs EASY? Do you think this will affect her nightime sleep?

By eating 4 hrly, she will only have 4 feedings a day (now she has 5 + night feed). Do you think I should try DF to avoid NW? I tried DF for 3 mo with no success.

Thanks,

Lidia 


 

[brenda2]

babies aren't easy i think is what it is!

great she's feeding every 4 hours, now you just have to get her A time up a bit so she can do 2 hours A time and it'll be great.  she's supposed to drop a feed when she moves to the 4 hour routine, but since it's longer between feeds they'll take in more at each feed so end up with the same amount over the course of teh day.  she will probably need a night feed as well, which you have been doing so that's fine.  you could try a df for a few nights and see what happens.  it doesn't work for all babies, so if it doesn't work just drop it again.  we did it and i loved it.  i df until 8 mo.

tracy recommends not letting them sleep for longer than 2 hours because it will disrupt night sleep.  3 hours is certainly a bit long.  once she increases her A time it won't be an issue because then her A time will be 2 hours and her naps will be 2 hours and she'll feed every 4...until then you could play it by ear.  if you think the long naps are causing NWs then just wake her after 2 hours.  does that make sense?

[lidiayy]

 Hi Brenda,

 Yes, thanks for the advice, I really appreciate it. The challenge is to keep her awake longer than 1h 15 min without being OT.
 Yesterday we ended up having 2 looooong 2.5 hrs nap + 1 long nap of 2 hrs  . After that, she stayed awake for almost 2 hrs and was OT (after bath and bedtime feed), but settled easily. She woke up at 4.45 am for the night feed. No problems in resettling. 
  I think she loves to sleep. Or due to late bedtime (9 pm), she compensates it by sleeping longer during the day.   
  She woke up this morning at 7.45, fed and then played for 1h15 min. Slept for 2.5 hrs. She fed after 3 hrs 45 min, though.
  Now she has just settled for the 2nd nap, after 1.5 hrs of 'A'. Let's see how this longer 'A' time will affect this nap... 
 
 
 

[brenda2]

that is a lot of daytime sleep, but if your day is 13 hours instead of 12 then she should be getting 1 more daytime hour of sleep to make up for it which it sounds like she is doing?  is that right? 

you always want to increase A time slowly, otherwise she'll get OT.  so just do an extra 5 min every few days and she should be able to handle it.  feeding after 3 hours 45 min is fine - she's not even 4 mo yet right?  we weren't on a 4 hour EASY until close to 5 mo. when DD could finally handle the 2 hours A time.  so take it slow.  sounds like you're going in the right direction.

[lidiayy]

 That's what I thought. Even if I try my best to put her on a 12 hours routine, it won't work for us. I'll have to make some tweaking myself.
 I've been thinking on something like:

 7:30am - wake up and feed
 7:45 - diaper change, play
 8:30 - wind down + sleep
 
 11:15 am - wake up and feed
 11:30 - activity
 12:15 - wind down + sleep
 
  3:00 pm - wake up and feed
  3:15 - activity
  4:15 - wind down + sleep

  6 pm - wake up and feed
  6:15 - activity
  7:30 - wind down + sleep (catnap)
 
  8:15 - bath + PJ's
  8:40 - feed + burp
  9:00 - bed

  4 - 5 am - feed

  What do you think?
  Today I've thrown out the routine (just for a little  ) to see what happens.
  So far we've had:

  7:30 -wake up
  7:45 - feed
  8:00 - 8:30 - diaper change + low key 'A' time
  8:50 - 11:20 - sleep

  11:35-feed
  11:50 - 1:00 pm play
  1:15 - 3:40 - sleep
 
  3:45 - feed
  4:00 - 6:20 - play (too long, but couldn't settle)
  6:20 - sleep (now it's 6:40 here)

  If she could sleep until 7:30 that would be nice. Hopefully, dad will be home by then. But today's routine won't work for us because I would like her to start the day at 7 am. 7:30, the latest. If it were a 12 hours routine, she would need to be in bed by 7 pm, which doesn't work for us. Maybe if I add an extra feed around 6 pm, she would handle until 8 pm. What do you think?

  Sorry for the long post. It's just so hard to be thinking and thinking...

  Thanks,

   Lidia
 
 
 
 
 
 

[brenda2]

ok...what you did today sounded ok - the A times were about 1.5 hours which is right for now, but you should be adding about 5 - 10 min every 3 days until you get up to 2 hours A time.  you're right the last A time was too long, you should keep it 1.5 to 2 hours max after a long nap, and 1 to 1.5 hours max after the catnap.

why do you want her to start her day so early?  i understand about the late bedtime, but i think if you're going to go with that then you should let her sleep in a bit in the morning.  if she's going to bed at 9 pm i think the earliest you want to get her up is 8 am.

it's fine to cluster feed in the evenings before bed.

[lidiayy]

 Hi Brenda,

 Definitely I need to make changes in her routine. I'll give it a go and try to extent her A times accordingly to what you've suggested.

 Yesterday, she woke up only 30 minutes after sleeping (catnap at 6 pm). I fed her at 7 pm and then tried to put her down again with no success. I left her alone in her crib and she was trying to self soothe but I think she was so OT that couldn't make it. She wasn't crying or fussy, though.

 Bath and bedtime finished at 9. She was in bed by 9:20 and settled with no problems (I think she was relieved that day finished  ).

 She woke up at 5 am to feed and then I woke her up at 7:40 to start the day.  I fed her and left her with dad (saturday morning is mom's time - I go to the manicure  ). She didn't sleep at all. She stayed awake until 11 am and had bags under her eyes! Poor LO... So OT! He said she couldn't settle, maybe he was OS'ing her with the mobile.

 Now re waking up at 7: I'll be returning to work by the end of next month and she'll be staying at a day care. I'll leave her there at 7:30 and I thought I should get her used to waking up at 7. Twice a week I have a person who comes to clean the house, she arrives at 8am ish and before she comes I have to feed, change diaper (she normally poos in the first feed), pump after feed so I'm always rushing!

 But you're right again. When she starts at the daycare, they won't follow my routine as they have their own. She'll probably have the E, A and S all changed by that and I don't need to push too much since it's only going to happen at the end of July. Tomorrow I'll let her wake up by herself to see what happens. I just wonder if I'm not being inconsistent by doing that.

  Thanks for listening.

  Lidia


 

[brenda2]

30 min naps means OT...try to reduce A time.

ok...well it makes sense to get her used to waking at 7 then, but i think her day is still too long.  it's tough on them to be awake for 14 hours, even with naps.  when she goes to daycare, depending on the environment and how many kids and what their approach is she may have fewer naps there.  it'll also be way more stimulating, so just keep it in mind- you may have to do a very early bedtime after such a long day of fewer naps at daycare, otherwise she'll be way OT.

[lidiayy]

Hi Brenda,

Just a quick update: we had another STTN!! Yay! 
But she just contradicts the BW's theories
Weekend was awful in terms of naps. She had 2 30 naps + 1 1hour nap either on sat and sunday. I know she was OT because my family and in laws came to see her. Wasn't she supposed to have more NW? I'm not complaining, though. It's just that I start to fear bedtime thinking that this OT'ness can lead to NW...
And she woke up this morning at 7 am... I think she read mommy's post. LOL
BTW, I know what you mean by naps at daycare... No doubt it's my biggest concern. But there's no other way. I'll be back to work and I have no one to look after her while I'm out. 

[brenda2]

i'm sure it will work out for daycare, it just may mean that she'll have an earlier bedtime those days and take extra naps on weekends etc to catch up.

so when she has fewer naps she STTN?  and when she has more naps she has NWs?  it does take a while for routine changes to cause an effect.  she's still young to have naps figured out.  babies work on day sleep between 3-6 mo.  you may find aas she gets a bit older less naps do mean NWs. 

my LO had a very strange routine with really looooong naps and really loooong A times and a later bedtime until i found BW at about 3 mo and really she did fantastic at night - only 1 NW for feeds.  (i switched to BW techniques because i was having a hard time getting her to fall asleep independently and sleep in her crib but really before this on no routine whatsoever she did great at night).  but then at around 5 mo the NWs started if she got OT at all.  so who knows?? 

glad she's STTN for you 

[lidiayy]

Hi Brenda,

Another quick update: she STTN for 3 days consecutive and then.... Today she woke up at 5:20 am. 
I worked out what would she need to STTN and I guess what I made wrong yesterday is that I left her sleep too much during the day.
Naps were:
1 2 hour
1 1.5 hour + 50 min
1 1 hour
1 1 hour - this was supposed to be catnap before bedtime.

Does this make sense to you? She didn't have any longer naps (more than 2 hours) but maybe all this daytime sleep robbed from night-time sleep?

She was doing sooo beautifully, waking up at 7 am, just like I wanted her to.

I don't mind her waking up early b/c I feed her and she'll sleep immediately but my boobs become engorged when she STTN and when it's too close to 6 am, she messes up the routine...