Advice needed re: 45 min nap extension

[waterdragon]

Hi ,
Ive been posting on the general sleep forum but now have a new problem.
My Lo is 18 weeks old , dreadful sleeper since birth. Untill 2 weeks ago she couldnt transition from light to deep sleep in the day (ie wake at 20 mins) She has had multiple NW and was OT ++++.Things have somewhat improved in the last 2 weeks.
To cope with the day naps I was starting all naps in her cot and she sleeps independently. After her 3/4th wakening I would transfere her to her swing where she would sleep soundly for 2+ hrs.

Now she is sleeping 45 mins and waking ... better than before but still not ideal.When she wakes she cries and is still very tired .Her  A time is still 1.15 to 1.30 hrs max.(including feed) She is feed 4 hrly.

In the last 2 days I have successfull extended her morning nap to 2.5 hrs!! But I have some questions for those who have been succesful with this

1. If I consistanty try to extend her naps will she eventally do this on her own and how long are we talking?

2.I usually press down on her trunk and legs saying shhh but have had to put her soother back a few times.If I use her soother for nap extension will she continue to wake for it??

3.At the moment she seems to need a 2.75 hr nap in the am and 2.5 hr nap in the afternoon but gets by on a 20-40 min nap in the evening.She has never slept in the  evening but is in ok form and stays awake for  2 hrs . Given the lenght of her first 2 naps is  this going to be difficult to achieve?

4.Have never yet managed to extend afternoon nap much beyond 45 mins  plus a 20 mins .She gets hysterical if she cant sleep (hence use of swing).Is this common?

Thanks for any advice

[brenda2]

hi
i'm a bit confused...you say she usually takes a 2 hour 45 min nap in the morning and a 2.5 hour nap in the afternoon?  but then you said you can't extend her afternoon nap past 45 min?  so you are transferring her to her swing for both of these naps half way through?  or using the soother?

these are very long naps.  at 4-5 mo most LOs are taking 2x 1.5 to 2 hour naps and a 45 min catnap.  she seems to be getting way more daytime sleep than this.  i would be worried that it will interfere with night time sleep.  she may have needed it to get over her OT, but now that she's caught up i think it's too much.

also, her A time is very short given her age.  between 4-5 mo most LOs can do up to 2 hours of A time.  it may be 1 hour 45 min first thing as this is often the shortest a time...but i think you should really work on extending her A time up to 2 hours.  do it slowly - in 5 or 10 min increments every few days.  if you increase her A time her naps may lengthen on their own.  she has to be tired enough to need a long nap but not OT...kwim?

as for your questions...i'm a little confused still but i will try:
1) i think if you extend her A time her naps will extend on her own as long as you haven't done too much AP with the swing...
2)she may wake for the soother if you continue to give it to her yes.
3)?i don't know what you mean
4)still confused about length of afternoon nap...yes it's common for babies to cry if OT, but some also cry if you are trying to put them down and they're not ready for a nap.

[marty]

Hey, waterdragon.  I definitely feel for you.  I was addicted to this forum about a month ago when my 4.5-month son just couldn't get past the 45 minute mark for naps.  It was frustrating!  FWIW, I learned that extending his awake time helped him stay down longer for naps.  I think he had gotten used to going to sleep after an hour and a half, so he would always start fussing at that time.  It was almost as if he wasn't really tired, but just thought he was!  Another trick was to start his awake time with stimulating activity and decrease that over the hour so that by the time he was going down for a nap we were listening to music or watching cars go by.  And I would also go in right as I heard him waking to pat-shush him back to sleep, before he woke up too much.  Wake2sleep never really worked for us.  Oh, and finally, getting him on a regular nap schedule really helped with the 45 minute mark wakings - almost as if he knew he was supposed to still be asleep, so it would help him get over the hump.  Oh, and finally, we still swaddle for all naps, but not at night (since he always gets out of it by morning).  Good luck!

[waterdragon]

Thanks Marty and Brenda
Just to clarify, up to now I have always started naps in her  cot but when she had repetedly woken tired I transfered her to the swing where she would sleep till I woke her.That is where I get the 2.5-2.45 hr naps (a combination of bed and swing)

I supose my real question is does extending naps (ie being there at the wake up ) help babies to learn to do it themselves or is it developmental and will she learn herself with time and what age would this be?

Yesterday and today I managed to extend but Ive noticed that if I get her through the 45 min mark she seems to wake 10 mins after Ive left the room!!!

You may be right about extending A time will really try to increase slowly.

I dont think the swing has had any significant ill effects on her she seems fine with sleeping in her cot.Obviously the ideal is to get rid of it.

[marty]

When you put her back to sleep at the 45 minute mark, in the beginning it's just like you are putting her down for the first time - you'll need to stay with her to get past the jolts.  This definitely gets better with time!  And yes, I do think you being there at the wakeup will help her learn how to sleep longer eventually.  I don't know about the swing - I would think that is good to make sure she is not overtired but otherwise I would limit the use.  MY "swing" is a walk in the stroller which always (used to) put him out.  It's good to have a fall back, but if you make it the norm she will only nap that way!

[waterdragon]

Any idea when babies grow out of 45 min naps ?? Or do they ever??
It would be nice to have some target.

[brenda2]

in order to be able to sleep past the 45 min naps the baby has to be able to go to sleep and stay asleep independently, and has to be on an appropriate routine, meaning they have to be tired enough  but not too tired to take a long nap.  so extending the A time is going to help with this, and may be all you have to do. 

then you want to gradually reduce the amount of help you give so that they can learn to fall asleep independently at the beginning of the nap without any help from you.  gradually reduce how much shh/pat and holding down you do until you can just pop him in the crib and he'll do the rest. 

once both those things are acheived and he's still having short naps then yes it may be developmental.  some babies grow out of this around the 7 mo mark when most go to 2 naps...some at the 1 year + mark when most go to 1 nap and some never do...so tough to say.  but i think if you work on A times and independent sleep that's a great start.

[waterdragon]

Thanks Brenda
Lets hope she grows out of it before 1 !! She is great at going asleep her self initallly.I do a winddown, swaddle put her soother and and can walk out of the  room and she ll put her self to sleep with  in 5 mins and usually with out any fuss. I have been careful to always put her down awake since birth so she is well accustomed to it. The jolts at the 45 mins mark seem to be the problem.It took 4 months to get her to sleep longer than 20 mins as the jolts form light to deep sleep used to wake her so I guess this is just something she is prone to .
Its not UT thats waking her as when she wakes she seems to try really hard to get back to sleep.
Anyway will continue to work on A time .Now on 1.5 hrs almost morning midday and evening and 2 hrs before bed.She seems to get a bit hysterical now at the end of the day ,laughing one second and crying the next...maybe just adapting???
Claire

[deb]

When we were first extending Josie's naps, it was about 7-10 days till she consistently slept through the 45-minute waking. She would still spit out the paci, but it wouldn't bother her, as sleeping through had become a habit.

[waterdragon]

Hi Deb
Been working on extending A time now and it is helping with naps .Have managed to get some 2 hrs naps  in COT !!! Still extending some with swing where necessary but I am happy with progress so far.
My big issue now is the lack of sleep between 4am and 8 am .
You mentioned in your story that your Lo didn't settle well after the 4 am feed.I have had this problem practically since she was born .(will be 5 months this week)
She goes to bed easily at 8 and is woken /wakes about 12 for DF. (we tried earlier but it made the second half of the night worse). She wakes between 3.30 -4.45 for next feed.After this she is quite awake and I put her back into her cot .She may take almost 45 Min's to settle  and only cry at the end at which point I reswaddle her and give her the soother.
It then seems she goes into nap mode with waking every 20-45 Min's ,ie this am was awake at 5.30 /6/6.30/7/up at 7.45. This is exhausting obviously and a bad start to the day if we are trying to start with 2 hrs A time .
We tried dropping the 4 am feed and it lead to increased restlessness about 1 month ago ie awake every 30 Min's and crying++. She is a really poor feeder during the day taking only 22-26 oz max in a 24 hr period including her 4 am feed. Have been trying to feed her at the end of her A time as you suggested , occasionally she'll take an extra oz or 2.
Started solids on sunday and although it is early days she seems to "get it" and be quite interested  but it will be a while before this  actually provides real calories I imagine

Any way thanks for your advise

Claire

[marty]

We have the early morning waking problem too.  Seems that he isn't as tired at that time, so he doesn't sleep as deeply then.  Our solution has been to double swaddle him to make sure he doesn't get free and to give him the pacifier right away after the 3 or 4am feeding.  I generally don't give him the pacifier to go to sleep, but after several early mornings with him awake from 3am to 5am, I decided it was worth it!  The last 3 nights have been great.

Also, make sure you are ignoring her at that hour if she is not crying hard.  You want her to get the idea that she is basically on her own then, or will just get pat-shushed.

Good luck!