How to switch from 3 to 2 naps

[ericapt]

Hi-
I had actually posted in general sleep issues because LO, who is now 7 months old, has started taking 30-45 minute naps the past 3 weeks.  I can't put my finger on what has caused the change.  He used to take 2 long naps (1.5+ hours each) and 1 short nap (30-60minutes) every day.  Now he is only taking 2-3 short naps (30-45 minutes each) and I have tried adjusting A time with no luck either way.  I think that he should be able to do 2 naps a day by now, right?  How do I make it work?  It seems that his first A time needs to be adjusted, but no 2 days are alike, so I can't figure it out!  About 2 weeks ago it seemed as though he was trying to drop his 1st morning nap, so I kept him up longer than usual and he ended up taking a 2 hour nap and a 1.5 hour nap later that day.  This happened 2 days in a row, but since then it has been down hill.  I can't get him to stay asleep and I know he is OT!  He seems to be sleeping pretty well at night (Asleep at about 7 pm and wakes about 5 am with occassional NW for paci--unfortunately his normal wake up time is 6 am, but he has been EW for about 3 weeks as well.  I'm sure it's related to naps somehow, not sure though.)  How can I transition to longer A times when he still nurses every 3.5 hours.  Occassionally he will go 4 hours between BF, but not usually.  He used to go to bed at 8 pm and wake at 6 am.  I actually preferred that to the 5 am waking, but he does seem tired by 7 pm (maybe just because he's waking earlier--it's like a snowball effect).  Anyway, if anyone could make suggestions I would really appreciate it.  I am getting frustrated and upset with myself.  I just want him to sleep well.  He is generally a happy baby, but with these short naps he is fussy all day which makes me crabby and sad.  I wish he could sleep--I really want to help him!  thanks
Erica

[deckchariot]

Oh Erica, I'm sorry it's so hard for you right now!!  Can you post your typical EASY routine (including sleeps, solids, and bm feedings) and we'll start by taking a look at that.  You are right that most bubs drop their catnap between 6-8 mos, so he probably can settle in to a 2 nap day, so let's have a look at your EASY and go from there!

hth
michelle

[ericapt]

Michelle-
Thank you, I will post our routine, but it can be very confusing because LO is all off routine lately.  Lou was helping me in general sleep issues, so I hope it's ok to post in more than one area.  She has been so wonderful and supportive.  I am feeling very frustrated right now because as usual he just woke from a nap after only 25 minutes!  When he woke I tried to get him back to sleep, but he just keeps screaming, which made me start crying with him.  I think I am just overwhelmed right now and since he isn't sleeping well, I'm not getting much of a break or much sleep.  Sorry to vent, here is our routine.

E   6 am   BF (he has been waking at 5 am for the past 3 weeks, but usually I can keep him in his crib until 6 am)
A   7 am   solids (2-3 T cereal w/ formula and 1-4 oz fruit)
S   who know right now--He used to nap from 7:30 or 8 until 9:30, but lately it's been a 30-45 minute nap (I'm sure the EW is throwing this off, but adjusting A time hasn't helped)

E   9:30   BF
A
S   depends on when he woke from last nap, but if it was a short 30-45 minute nap then A time is 2-2.25 hours)

E   1 pm  BF
A   1:45  I was giving him solids here, but doesn't seem interested usually
S   same issue as last nap, but I aim for down around 3 pm so he can make it to end of day

E   4:30  BF
A   5:15  solids (varies, but less than before)
E   6:30 or 7 pm  BF
S   it used to be 8 pm and he always slept until 6 am, but now with 5am waking we try for 7 pm, often he isn't asleep until 8 though

I know this is really confusing, but lately he is so unpredictable.  When he was taking 2 long naps (1.5+ hours each) and a short nap (30-60 minutes) we were on a predictable routine and things went pretty smoothe.  I don't know what's going on with him now, I am really trying to just relax and go with the flow, but that's not my personality.  I feel horrible for him because I know he is tired.  Last night he woke at 11 pm and was awake until I nursed him at 1 am, then he woke this morning at 4:45 am, but I didn't get him up and he finally fell back asleep at 6:20 until 7 am.  I fed him at 7 am and had him down for nap by 9 am and as I said he took a 25 minute nap.  What do I do when he wakes at 5 am.  Our day is so off and even if I put him back to sleep really early it doesn't seem to help.  Any advice please.  I am so confused and exhausted.
Erica

[deckchariot]

thanks for the routine post.....hmm.....also, if your questions on this thread are different than your other post on General Sleep, that's fine to post in 2 places - but if it's the same issue, it's better to just have one thread.  I popped over on your other one, and it looks like you started it because of the EWs - right?  If so, that's fine, keep that one there and this one can focus on naps.  If  you find it too confusing having 2 separate threads, we can merge them.  But right now, they look like separate issues, so 2 posts is fine.

That said.....a 25 min nap generally would indicate OT to me, but his A time looks really low for a 7 mo.  Most bubs are doing 2.75 - 3 hrs at 7 mos, and he look like he's more like 2 hrs - am I reading that right?  Or is that just after a short nap?  It looks like you're having trouble getting that first nap right and it's throwing off the rest of the day.  So let's start there.  When he wakes at 5 and you hold him off til 6, how?  Is he content to stay and play in his crib til you come in at 6?  You mentioned that playing with his A time isn't working - what have you tried?  For many lo's, the first A time of the day is the shortest, so if he's up at 5, I'm guessing he wouldn't do the full 2.75- 3 hrs.  How much A time have you tried there (remember, starting from the 5 am wake up - even though it's early - if we start there and get good naps, we can work on pushing that wake up later - good sleep begets more sleep!).  When you've switched up his A time - how long have you tried it?  I'd say try maybe 2.5 hrs of A time first thing - so if he's up at 5, aim to have him down for a nap by 7:30 - and then you take a nap!  Try that for 5 days and see if it helps.  He is no doubt way OT, so if we can get a good first nap in, that should help.  Continue to limit his A time the rest of the day if his naps are short.

His feedings look good - have you noticed the NW issues being connected with his dinner solids at all?  Sometimes bubs have a hard time sleeping with night solids at first - so I'd keep that really light and easy to digest (apples, pears etc), just to make sure that's not adding to his sleeping troubles.

Is he teething?  Learning any new skills (crawling, pulling up, sitting...)?  All those things can mess up the sleeping routine too.  When he wakes at 5 - is he hungry or does it seem like something else is waking him?

Hang in there!!!  Try to take a nap yourself when you put him down, that will help save your sanity!

michelle

[ericapt]

Thank you again Michelle, I appreciate your advice.  I agree that these are probably 2 different issues, but I wasn't sure if they could be connected.  You asked about his short awake times.  Yes, when he takes a short nap I do limit the next A time, per the advice of other BW moms.  His A times are a bit shorter than what other mommies say that their 7 month old can do, but we are slowly trying to increase.  He also can only go 3.5 hours between breastfeedings, so that also affects our whole routine.   3.5 hours between feeds doesn't leave much time for longer awake times and long naps.  This is where my problem begins I believe.  So, if you can offer any advice about how to stretch the routine out and still get 5 breastfeedings in maybe we could "fix" things.  When he wakes at 5 am he will either chatter to himself and then I just give paci once or twice and he doesn't seem to want to eat right away.  He definitely "tells" me when he wants to eat.  Usually it is upon first waking (at each feeding).  That's why I assume the EW are related to something else because he doesn't need to nurse immediately.  I will definitely work on limiting that 1st awake time to 2.5 hours to see of naps improve.  Like I mentioned, it seemed that he was trying to drop a nap because he was refusing to go down for first nap which before was 1.5-2 hours long.  Just a side note, I included todays schedule because it was off, but he finally took a decent nap (sort of). Today is way off, but to make matters even worse Hayden now has a cold (runny nose, congested, fever).  So, I'm sure things aren't as they should be.

today
A  4:45 am, but pretty content in crib and fell back asleep at 6:20-7am
E  7:10 am  BF
A  8 am      solids
S  started giving tired cues and in bed by 8:55 am (I guess from waking at 4:45 and buildup of OT from past 3 weeks).  He woke at 9:20 and I thought the nap was over.  Finally after
    trying after a long time he fell asleep at 10:15-11:20 (I woke him--I know I should have woken him earlier, but it had been so long since he had taken a decent nap)

E  11:20  BF
A
S  in bed at 1 pm because giving tired cues and on the verge of meltdown, but didn't fall asleep until 1:25, awake at 1:55pm

E  2:00pm BF
A
S  4:00-4:30

E  4:30 pm  BF
A  5:15 pm  some solids
E  6:30
S  7:30 asleep in bed
 
So this is where we are now and I don't know what to do.  If he continues to wake at 5 am should I feed him at that time even though he isn't crying in hunger or should I continue to wait 1+ hours until his "usual" wake time?  Should I try to end his day at 5 or 6 pm?  It seems impossible to get him to bed that early because he refuses to sleep and we just continue to try until he does finally sleep.  Sorry for all the rambling, I'm trying to do 2 things at once, but if you could begin to help us sort this out I would be so grateful.  I will definitely limit his first awake time as you suggested, but I do work part-time (2 days a week), so that throws it off a bit.  Thankfully my mom watches him, so she seems to follow what I ask.  Anyway, I'll go for now.  Again, sorry for all of the jumbled info.  Anything you could offer would be great.  Anxiously awaiting your advice.
Erica

[deckchariot]

Poor guy sounds like he is way OT....and so is mommy!  Hang in there Erica!  BFing every 3.5 hrs will certainly put an interesting spin on his day in terms of A time....So you're doing 5 bfs a day, right?  I think Abby was on 4 at that point, so let me see if I can help you figure out how to tweak your routine with 5 feeds and still good naps.....How is he tolerating solids?  Have you thought about adding lunch solids?  How big is he?  I'm wondering if he's just digesting that bm so fast that he's hungry and OT, and that's just never a good combo (not even in me!).  Not sure what advice you're getting on the EWs, but I suspect it's because of the wonky day sleep, so for me personally, I'd work on the day sleep first, and then do the EWs (though it may be possible to work on both).  I'd actually try "starting" your day when he wakes....I know, that sucks.  But I'm wondering if it's possible to sort out his day, and then begin extending him to get rid of the EWs - does that contradict what you're getting on the other thread?  I will pop over there later today and read the whole thread.  So maybe try an EASY like this for a few days:

A - 5 (whenever he wakes - you don't need to get him, just let him play like usual)
E - whenever you need to go in (don't use the paci to try to get him back to sleep, go ahead and bf)
S - 7:30 (start your wind down maybe 7:15 - and then you take a nap!!!!)

E - 8:30/9 - when he wakes (let's see how long he'll go)
A - solids after an hour or so
S - 11/11:30 (lets try to keep to 2.5 hrs if he naps at least 1 hr, you can extend if he naps longer)

E - 12:30/1 (when he wakes)
A - solids after an hour or so
S - 3/3:30 (again, keeping to 2.5 hrs if he naps 1 hr - keep the catnap for now)

E - 4/4:30 (limit to 45 min)
A - solids after an hour or so
E - 6/6:30 as part of the bedtime routine (however you usually do the bf with bedtime)
S - 6:30/7 (it's a bit later day then normal with a 5 am wake up, but we're trying....)

That gives you 5 bfs and now 3 solids.....I'm planning on 1 - 1.5 hr naps, just because he's OT already, and we're really just trying to get him caught up.  I should say, I have no experience with EWs, so I'm not sure how this will work.  I really see this as just a temporary routine to help get him caught up on some sleep so we can gradually start extending that A time, wipe out the catnap and eliminate the EW - doesn't that sound easy?!  If only it were!

does any of that make sense?  I've got to run, but I'll bbl to read the EW thread and check in on your here to see how today is going.  Hang in there!  It does look like you're trying to do all the right things, sometimes our bubs just haven't read the book   We'll figure something out!

hth
michelle

[ericapt]

Hi Michelle, thanks again for your help.  I am a bit confused because I think you started posting and then posted again, but the routines are different.  In the first routine you said BF when he wakes at 5 am, the second says wait until he cries/fusses to BF.  Just to mention today he woke at 5 am on the dot.  I went in and gave paci (bad, I know) and I think he fell back asleep, but woke again 20-30 minutes later.  I gave paci again and I think he fell asleep until 6 am, but not sure.  I fed him at 6:15 and had him down for a nap by 7:30 am, but he didn't finally fall asleep until 8:10 am and then he woke at 8:40!  I don't know what to do, I know he is OT, but I can not seem to get him past it.  Ok, got to go help as he is screaming again.
Erica

[deckchariot]

oops, sorry about the post confusion - had to get dd in the middle and guess I hit the wrong button   I removed the "wrong" one now....

I'm wondering if the paci in the wee hours is becoming a prop - can he not put it in himself? 

hmm..so if he woke at 5, and you put him down at 7:30, but he didn't fall asleep til 8:10, that's 3 hrs 10 min, which would seem like he'd be OT then...but he did get maybe 30 min more sleep...but not sure......The 30 min nap would certainly seem to indicate OT...I'm wondering if when you go to give him the paci if he's not falling asleep, but is just quiet - do you have a video monitor and can see that he's sleeping?

What I would try doing for the rest of the day is severely limiting his A time - bf him when you think he's hungry, then wait maybe 45 and offer solids, then wait maybe only 15 min and then start your winddown for the next nap.

I'm going to read your other thread about the EWs and see if that helps me help you   Wish I had more to offer - but it looks like you're trying the right things.....hang in there!

Oh, is he teething?  Has he recently learned any new skills that might be disrupting his sleep?

michelle

[ericapt]

Hi Michelle, thanks for all of your work to try and help us.  I'm sure it's not easy when you're not seeing it firsthand.  I know that you are just going by what I tell you and I could be leaving out some small detail that would tell you what he needs.  I have already started with limiting his A time today; he was down for another nap at 10:45, but he still isn't asleep and it's 11:20.  No matter what I do he is not sleeping, even if I rock him until he's asleep (I know I shouldn't) he still wakes up.  How do we get him to sleep so we can get rid of the OT and "start over"?  He could be teething, but I don't see anything and as far as milestones, he is only rolling and sitting.  He gets frustrated when he's on his tummy if a toy is out of reach, but he doesn't seem to be trying to scoot yet.  Sometimes he can put the paci in by himself, but not always.  And sometimes he sleeps without it just fine.  He is all over the place right now, nothing seems the same so I feel like I don't know the answers.  I feel miserable and stressed today because he seems like he will never sleep.  Sorry to be dramatic, but nothing seems to help. 
I'll keep trying.
Erica

[deckchariot]

oh Erica!  I wish I could help more!!!  For what it's worth, I do think you're doing a great job!  Sometimes it's just really hard...bbl....dd throwing food...

[deckchariot]

sorry about that....dds having a bad day, but she's down for a nap now.  I had a chance to read through your other thread, and I'm seeing that Lou and I are overlapping quite a bit in our advice.  I'm going to PM her and see if she wants to join the threads or split yours off and join it to this one, so we're all on the same page.

I wish there was more I could do to encourage you.  It is really hard when it seems like nothing is working.  When you put him down for a nap and it takes a long time for him to fall asleep - what is he doing in the crib?  Is he fussy?  mantra cry?  playing?  I"m just trying to get the best picture I can in my head of what you're seeing to see if that helps me any.  Hang in there!!

[ericapt]

Michelle-
Thank you for all of your help.  I apologize for taking up your time as I know that my LO isn't the only baby that has problems.  You are so wonderful for helping me and others, even though you have rough days too.  Wish I could help you in some way.  You asked earlier if we have a video monitor, yes and usually I can tell if he is asleep or awake, unless he is just lying very still in the morning, but not sleeping.  When he doesn't fall asleep for awhile after I lie him down sometimes he is just babbling, but usually this quickly turns to whines and then full-blown crying with sobbing and tears.  I don't have the heart (or strength) to let him go, so I usually go help.  How can I help him without doing it for him?  He seems to hate pu/pd because he just screams louder.  Sometimes shh/pat is ok, but other times he wants to be held and that is all that calms him.  I am probably giving him mixed signals by changing how I respond.  Anyway, he's still crying or crying again, I'm not sure.  Will wait to hear from you again.  I really do hope that your day gets better too.  You are a saint!
Erica

[deckchariot]

Believe me, Erica, I'm no saint - dd and I are having one of those days (I think she's annoyed with me too at this point!).  We are here to help - and someday you'll be sleeping again and you can pass along the help to other moms!

hmm...if he's babbling when you first put him down and then it turns to crying, that actually sounds undertired to me (which doesn't really make any sense, because I look at how little he's napping, and I'd be OT!).  I'm wondering if after his night, short though it is, he isn't ready to go down after 2.5 hrs, so he babbles awhile, but then is OT and can't get himself to sleep.  Is he by any chance spirited?

In terms of how you respond when he's crying - you are right to not leave him.  BW does not support CIO under any circumstances.  That being said, you are also right that you're sending him mixed signals because you respond differently.  We had the same issue with Abby a few weeks ago - we tried wi/wo, pu/pd, and even did some AP and (surprise, surprise) didn't have any success til we just stuck to wi/wo.  If he is spirited, pu/pd might not work so well for him.  With pu/pd and wi/wo, there will indeed be crying - Abby actually screamed louder than I'd ever heard her when we did wi/wo, but it did work.  I would say if pat/shh works some of the time, I'd do it.  If he's not settling down, then try wi/wo (which is really a modified version of pu/pd for older bubs) - where you rely on your voice to calm him down.  He will scream (because he knows if he does, you'll pick him up - which is why he calms down when you do).  If you do pick him up, he will come to expect that, and will come to need you to go back to sleep.  And I know that's not what you want to be working towards.

I'm also wondering if the paci is becoming a prop with those EWs - since you can tell that he goes back to sleep, but he's not finding the paci on his own and going back to sleep - he needs you to come in and give it to him.  I would not give it him - if he's not crying, leave him in his crib.  Then when he starts crying, go in and start your day ( even if it's 6:00 - hopefully that will just be short lived), but start his A time from when he first woke up (even if that's 5) - and I'd try 2.5 hrs of A time - try it for 3 days, if he still babbles for more than 10-15 min, I'd extend that first A time.  I know Lou posted a routine for you, and it looks pretty good to me - 4 bfs, 3 solids and a 13 hr day? right?  Maybe we can work towards that.

Do hang in there, I know it's hard when all you want to do is help your lo get some sleep!  Oh, you mentioned he is sick with a cold?  That will mess everything up!!!  We had good luck with Hyland's homeopathic cold tablets, and the little plug in vaporizers, and if she was really bad, we'd use a little saline spray and suction out her nose before sleeps, and that seemed to help.

[ericapt]

Michelle-
Thank you once again.  And yes, Hayden is definitely spirited/textbook.  When I read about other spirited babies, I feel like someone is reading my mind because he is exactly the same.  I truly appreciate all of your help and encouragement.  I do have both of Tracy's books, so I will look over the stuff about WI/WO to see if that can work.  I like the thoughts about trying to fix our mornings and adjust A time slowly if he continues to babble when I put him down for first nap.  I will let you know how things go and will work on being consistent with my methods at naps/bedtime.  I feel a little less stressed at the moment, not sure why because Hayden had 3 30-minute naps today and has been in bed since 7:30 and still isn't asleep (it's now 8:05).  Well, I hope that your day is getting better and that your LO is happier.  I plan to read your last post again because it had a lot of helpful info.  It really made sense to me.  Have a great evening, I'll keep you updated.  Thank you again.
Erica~~

[deckchariot]

how's today going Erica?  Heres some info on wi/wo - http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

I didn't find much in the books on it - but check out the age sections on pu/pd in BWSAYP.  It really functions a bit like a modified pu/pd - which I think actually works better for spirited bubs - the pu/pd part seems to be really overstimulating for them. 

I'm wondering if he's gotten too used to you helping him back to sleep (either with the paci for the EW or with the pu at other times) and that's some of why you're seeing it take so long for him to go to sleep on his own.  But he can remember how to do it!  He will pick up on your stress though, so try to find some time for you to relax and do something that energizes you.  I know that's hard when his naps are all over the place.  We actually had to stop using the monitor because I was so freaked out by her talking in there and wondering "why won't you sleep??"...without the monitor, I can still hear her if she's crying the "I need you" cry, but I don't hear all the other stuff.  I knew me being stressed out wasn't helping her any (and it certainly wasn't helping me!).  So find something that works to de-stress you (even if it's only in little increments).  And remember that he will get past this, he really will.