Fighting naps...Overstimulation? Can I EVER leave the house?

[Lulu m]

Hello. I have a LO who is a week shy of 9 mos old. I took her out on a 'play date' yesterday. A friend of mine has a 4.5 mos old.

We went to her house and DD hung out for a while. I made sure we left an hour before her nap. So she had a short car ride, I fed her a little more when we got home, went for a walk outside as part of our normal wind down routine, and then put her down for a nap.
She REFUSED the nap!

After 40 minutes of trying we went for a ride in the car (AP), but we still had 2 NW's last night. We were lucky that they were short NW - she was easy to get back to sleep, but this all makes me feel like I can never leave the house! I have taken her out before to her grandparents house, cousin's house, etc, but we always did a nap in the car because they live 45 minutes away.
UGH!

[Purplecattypants]

Hi there 

Hmmm in my experience 9 month olds arent necessarily so easily overstimulated. It may just be that your routine needs a tweak. Could you post in for us, i.e.

7am wake & E
8am solids
10am Nap 1.5 hrs

.....etc etc.

Hoepfully we will be able to offer you some help 

[Lulu m]

Thanks. You are correct - she needs a routine tweak. She has been fighting her pm nap, and now this morning she was fought her am nap. After 20 minutes of real fussing she fell asleep for 45 min. She was awake for 4.5 hours! I am following some of the other posts about 2-1 nap switch, but she is so young for this!

The problem I have with her - we had the same problem when we were on 3 naps - is  that once it reaches a certain hour of the day she refuses to nap. So even if she just needs a cat nap to make it to bed time she won't do it. I ended up cutting out her 3rd nap early too, and gave her an early bedtime. I got so frustrated of fighting that catnap with her. It was ugly and a long few months!

I read in the Ferber book (not that I use the Ferber method, but I found his info on sleep and sleep cycles informative), and he says there is a 'forbidden zone' of sleep for a lot of people, babies included, before bedtime where one finds it next to impossible to sleep.
For instance, say you go to bed at 11pm, and you were instructed to take a nap at 8pm. It probably would not make sense to you, nor could you fall asleep. Now I am not an expert by any means, but I think this is what happens with my DD.

I have tried cutting her am nap short, but then she gets cranky and OT quickly so I don't get a good afternoon nap anyways.

ARGH. So I do not know what to do from here! I might be driving her around in the car for a pm nap for the next couple of weeks until I can push out that am nap to 5 hours. At $4 a gallon this is not fun!

I am struggling with her at naps, and my poor little one has a mess of a mom! 

[Purplecattypants]

I am sorry you're having such a hard time...I can sympathise, naps went out the window here around 9 months too! I think many babies have problems around this age....hopefully it will past. Seriously, we had a rocky few weeks of nap refusal and now we're ok again.

Your lo may seem fine with 4.5 hrs A time, but it is far too much for her age. Is she touchy by any chance? J is....I have a very short window in which to get him to sleep...put him down too early and he fights it because he is UT, fights so much that he misses his window....put him down too late and he fights because he's OT. I literally have a 10min window when he will go down perfecty, and god help me if I miss it!!

I limited my lo's am nap to 45 mins to try and get a good pm nap. Tried for 2 weeks and he was STILL more often than not fighting his pm nap. So I switched it up......1.5 hrs in the morning, 45mins in the arvo. You may have more luck with that.

I do however think you may be having those wonky few weeks so many lo's go through...i'm not sure that anything you try will work right now until she decides to settle down again on her own, but you can try. If that short nap (whether that be am or pm) needs to be in the car or stroller sometimes, then so be it (I kwym about gas prices though!  ) It will pass.

Of course, if you want to try the longer am nap then the shorter pm nap then do...you may be plesantly surprised. What is her current morning A time? Be aware that 45mins not only mean UT, they can also mean OT at this age

Try not to get too stressed out about it either way, I know its very easy but it wont help you or your lo and will probably make the situation worse. If she fights and fights just give up and take her out in the stroller....she may surprise you and drop off while you're out, and if not at least you got some fresh air!

 

[Lulu m]

Thank you. Yep - she is textbook/touchy. I have about a 30 second window to get her down for a nap! If it is too early she gets mad and her UT turns into OT.
She did do this weird thing when the 3-2 nap switch started and would stay awake for 5 hours! So I hope you are right that this will pass. I have no idea when to put her down for a nap this am, but her typical A time is 4 hours. Her second A time is 3.5 hours, and I give her a bedtime of 6:30-7pm. she is always an early riser, so she gets an early bedtime.
I *think* that if she wakes at 45 min she is UT - only because she was one of those nappers that slept 39 min on the nose evey time, so that is one sleep cycle for her. She actually slept for 48 min yesterday am after 4.5 hrs, BUT again, she did the same kind of thing at the start of the 3-2 switch.
Hopefully today will be a better day!

[Purplecattypants]

Keep up the good work, you will get there! Hope you have a good day 

I am going to move this to naps btw as its a nap issue. Oh, and modify the title slightly 

[Lulu m]

Argh! DD fought her am nap again this morning. I therefore took her out of her crib for 15 minutes and put her back down. She then decided she was hungry, so I was hoping to get in a quick BF, and then she went from UT to OT and got VERY crabby. She is finally asleep, and I am hoping to get a long nap. Can you ever get one when they are OT? If I get a short one, I am not sure when to put her down for a second nap! I can never seem to figure it out.
I can't imagine having to do this again tomorrow too. This has been going on for 5 days now. I do not know what our routine is anymore!

[Lulu m]

FYI - we did get a long nap - almost 2 hours. I then took her for a car ride for her second nap, and she took a 30 min cat nap. We were aiming for her usual bedtime of 6:30, but she got so crabby we speeded up her wind down routine and got her into bed by 6:10pm. She took about 20 minutes to fall asleep anyways, and it usually takes her 5. She is definitely OT.
Her am A time seems to have jumped about 30 minutes! I will try tomorrow to put her down 30 min later in the morning and see what happens.
I will do her second nap in the car for now if I have to.
I had to do it with the 3-2 nap switch too. She will not fall asleep with just a stroller ride. 
Once I get the morning nap thing sorted out, maybe I can cut it down to an hour and get a second nap at home?

[Lulu m]

AND she was up at 4:45am this morning and would not go back to sleep. I am at a loss. It is getting worse by the day.

This WAS our routine:

6:00 up for the day
6:15 - BF
6:30 - A
7:30 - solids
8:00 - A
10:00 - nap
11:30 - wake
11:45 - BF
12:00 - A
1:00 - solids
1:30 - A
3:00 - nap
4:00 - wake
4:15 - BF & solids
5:30 - bath
6:00 - Bottle
6:30 - bed

Then she started to fight the pm nap, so I cut her am nap down to 1 hr 15 min instead, and the pm nap seemed to get better. We had a couple of rough days til I figured it out.

She started to fight the pm nap again, so I cut her am nap down more, but then she just got cranky and OT right away, so cutting it down did not work. So I went back to a longer am nap and was praying she'd take the pm nap.

NOW she is fighting her am nap - she is already at 4 hrs of A time in the am and she is a week away from 9 mos - that seems like a lot? Then she fights the pm nap - probably because she is OT, and I keep taking her in the car at the second nap time. I HATE doing this as it takes her at least 20 minutes in the car to fall asleep, so I am in the car for over an hour.

I was letting her fight the am nap with mantra crying that would last 10 -20 min, and she'd fall asleep - but only for under an hour!

Last night she only slept a little over 10 hours. NOT good. I heard her wake a few times as well, and she was up at 4:45am - NOT good for me either.

Her longest A time is in the am - it was 4 hours. Yesterday she would not go down until 5 hours and slept for nearly two. I have no idea what I am doing anymore.

PLEASE tell me how I can get her back on track? Please?!

[Purplecattypants]

Oh gosh you poor thing....I feel for you, I really do!!

Ok, so she is super early to start the 2-1 transition but its not beyond the realms of possibility. Take at look at this: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=95670.0 and let me know what you think. Its a horrible time, but it wont last I promise 

[Lulu m]

Thanks. I think she is starting the switch too. I put her down after 4 hrs and 15 min this morning (I mean she had been up since 4:45am)! and I thought that was stretching it. She had a fit, but fell asleep after 10 min and slept for 50 min. Are you kidding me?!
I have NO idea when to put her down next, but I am trying after 3 hours max. If she takes another short nap I don't know what to do. Take her in the car again?
She is getting a 6pm bedtime regardless!

[Lulu m]

Well - today has been just awful. I got a second nap of 40 min. She woke crying and I tried for 35 min to get her to go back to sleep and she cried hysterically the ENTIRE time. I got so frustrated I starting screaming at her, and my DH came in and told me to get a hold of myself. I have been crying for over an hour myself now.
So she has taken 2 naps by 1:45 in the afternoon. I am taking her for a car ride in a bit and HOPE that she sleeps so we can make it til bedtime. I mean really - I can't put her to bed at 4:30? She has not taken 3 naps in over 8 weeks, so not sure this is going to work.
And PU/PD was too stimulating for her, so I just left her in her crib and patted her head, and this did not help, so I tried Wi/Wo and she was still hysterical. She is soooooooooooooo OT and I cannot break the cycle.

[marensmama]

Oh my gosh you poor thing... that sounds like it's been rough.  The only thing I could come up with is that 9 months is the average time SA starts.  Is it possible this is a factor?

Also, my DD2 has recently decided she's too grown up for pat/shh, and PU/PD is too stimulating as well.  So I just keep my hand on her chest and talk to her softly until she's calm, and then I leave the room.  We haven't needed to do wi/wo yet, but that's certainly the best technique if you think this is SA.

Your routine before looked pretty good, and you did the right thing trying to alter the length of nap.  I think she's OT and needs to go back to the routine you posted, maybe by trying a different method (such as what I do with my DD) to help settle her, in case it is SA.  You could even stay with her and then use the gentle removal method if you become a prop.

Sorry, I wish I could offer more. 

[Lulu m]

Thx - I like the tip of leaving your hand on her chest.
I just think she is going through a phase of her A times increasing, but still needing naps.
I know a lot of moms put their LO's down at the same time everyday. I can't believe that works.
I'm so lost!

[Purplecattypants]

Thanks for you input Nicole 

More hugs hun, we really do feel your pain. Another thing I find works for SA....I lay down at the side of his crib and avoid eye contact. He gets up and throws his toys on me (lol) but he knows i'm there if he needs me. He will often lay down and go to sleep after a while, but if not I get up and lay him down. If he starts crying I pop my head up and reassure him.

It WILL get better. I know that doesnt help right now, the only thing I can really say is that you're not alone, we've all been there and we understand. You may have a wonky few weeks, but things should improve. When J did this, I thought his A time had sudenly increased to 4/5 hours. Turns out it was pretty much the same as it had been before, he was just choosing to fight his naps no matter what I did 

At this age, A times often increase less subtely than when they're younger. Remember that says of the 3-4hour easy transition? Having to do it in 10min increments to avoid OT? When they get older, A times can often jump bigger increments faster iykwim. When J did what your lo is doing, he went from a 9:30am morning naptime to 10am pretty much overnight. Then 10:30 a few weeks after that. Hopefully you will find that he settles down soon and you can judge A times better again.

Another thing.....I know you say he wont sleep in the stroller, but I would strongly urge you to try again. As I mentioned before, J is also a super touchy baby and refused to nap in the pram....however, during his few weeks of nap refusal I took him out regularly, and now he will sleep in there, with it laid flat and the rain or sun cover on, and a blanket over that to darken it. The past few days he refuses his pm nap too, so I take him out in the stroller and he's out  Means we get some fresh air and exercise too!

More hugs, we are here with you