Urgent! Need help! Today's bedtime?

[smum]

Hi everyone! My ds is 16month old and has been an early riser. I've tried many routine possibilities during the past 6 months. The past 4 days were like worst nightmares for me. I really am at my wits’ end and don’t know how to get out of his OT cycle. So I wish someone at least can tell me what time should be his bedtime today. Please! Please! somebody give me some support or suggestions. I've been so depressed that I don't want to eat anyting these days. I wrote these days’ situations as follows:


8/23

6:30 wake (only 10h)

10:12-10:27 (am nap 15min,accidentally) He asked me to hold him “upright” to fall asleep and woke up when I put him down.

12:06-1:46 (pm nap 1h40min)

7:10 bed (5h24min A time) His usual bedtime is 8:00-8:30

8/24

6:30 wake (11h20m) seemed happy

10:16-10:51 (am nap 35min,I cut it)

2:28-4:00 (pm nap 1h32min, I cut it)

8:30 bed

8/25

7:17 wake (10h47m)

11:02-12:30 (am nap 1h28m, I cut it)

NO PM NAP because he was so fussy and the weather was hot. He asked me to hold him “upright” again and cried hysterically if I held him horizontally or put him down. It was impossible for him to fall asleep this way and I finally gave up. This NO PM NAP situation was the 2nd time.

But even I successfully let him have a catnap 35min at around 4:10-4:30pm and bedtime 8:30-8:45. The results were so confusing. Sometime he still can sleep at least 10h. Sometime he sleeps less than 10h.

7:10 bed (6h40 A time)

8/26

6:10-6:30 wake (11h at least)

10:10-10:45 (am nap 35min, I cut it)

1:52-2:52 (pm nap 1h)
 
It was a very tottering nap. He stirred up EVERY MINUTE after he slept for 35min. When I went into his bed and hoped to help him pass through these jolts. He woke up. I had no doubt that he was VERY OT.

7:18 bed

8/29 (Today)

6:47 wake. However, he was up TWO hours (1:26-3:26am) and slept only 9h30m.

10:42-1:12 (am nap 2.5h, I didn’t cut it)

Because he had a bad night, I think he should want to sleep before his original A time (3h40m) So I planned to let him sleep at 10:00-11:20 and at 3:00-4:00. Just like what I thought, before 10:00, he already cried a lot and I let him grabbed a rabbit doll to help him calm down. He almost fell asleep at 10:05 but his hands just wouldn’t stop rubbing the rabbit. Because he didn’t sleep, he became very fussy and cried hysterically again. No matter how I hold him, he just wouldn’t stop crying. Finally I let him hold his rabbit doll again and I held his hands. He fell asleep at 10:42, almost 4h A time.

His usual bedtime is 8:00-8:30. The earliest possible bedtime is 7:00-7:30. Because I didn’t put off his AM nap too much and he had a 2.5h nap, I’m afraid that early bedtime will bring 5ish EW. But if I keep his original bedtime, I’m afraid it would be too late for him. (7h)

His A time before bedtime (under two naps condition)
PM NAP 35 min (3h35-3h50m)
                40-50 min (4h10-4h20m)
                1h-1h30m (4h20-4h30m)
                1h40m (4h30-5h10m)

On 8/3 another accidental one nap situation: He woke up at 7:13 (10h40m) and his am nap was 1h15min ending at 12:15. His dad failed to let him sleep at 4:00-4:20. Then I tried to hold him to sleep from 4:30 to 6:00, he was so tired and didn’t move a bit. But he just couldn’t close his eyes. Finally he went to bed at 7:25 and woke at 5:50. So even he had only a nap and went to bed 7 hr after his nap, he can sleep 10.5h. But there is so much difference between today and 8/3. I still don’t know if I should try early bedtime (7-7:30) or original bedtime 8:00 today.

[jenniferr]

Sounds similar to what we are going through! We were having awake time for a few hours during the night for a few days so I know how tough it is. It's really hard right now when they're in between needing two naps and one nap. I personally would try and get a catnap and an 8PM bed time. With my DD, if I put her to bed at 6:30, she would wake by 5 for sure. Have you tried 1 hour nap in AM and 1.5 hour in PM? Your LO definitely seems OT waking that early!

[smum]

Hi Jennifer, really tks for your response & support. It makes me feel better. My son has so many sleeping problems: not an independent sleeper, EW/NW, OT. They really drive me crazy. My son's A time is 3h40-50m btwn wake-up and am nap; 3h27-4h btwn am/pm nap. It's not long enough to have only one nap, and also difficult to squeeze in two naps.

To resolve his EW problem, I've tried late& short am/long pm nap approach for one month. Then I switch to long am/short pm catnap. The later method (long am) can sometimes bring me later wake-up (after 6:30, even after 7:00) but recently it also brings me short night sleep (less than 10hrs). For example. On 8/13 he slept from 8:30-7:05 (10h35m), am nap 1h33min (10:42-12:15, I cut it) and pm catnap 35min (4:17-4:52, I cut it) bed 8:30. The next day he woke at 6:16am. (9h45m) Then I need to go through several painful days. The results of this approach were so contradictory that I don’t know if I should stick to it. 

Another problem of long am/short pm is that his pm nap needs to start before 4:30. After 4:30, it’s really difficult to get him any sleep. Even I can get any, his bedtime will be after 8:40 and the result won’t be good. His wake-up has been stuck at 5:50-6:40. Later bedtime won’t get late wake-up.

The worst is he doesn’t have any pm nap if it doesn’t happen before or at 4:30, leaving me a very OT baby and early bedtime.

I also can't push his am nap if his pm nap must start at/before 4:30 and for at least 35min. However, I really don't know if 35min catnap is too long or too short for him. 

So the long am/short pm approach can bring me later wake-up, but it really risks OT.

The short am/long pm approach also confuses me. On 8/24, I tried it, and it was successful. (10h45min) On 8/26, I tried it, it was a failure. On 8/26, his am nap 35min (10:10-10:45,cut), pm nap 1.5h (2:30-4:00,cut) bed 8:30 and he woke up at 6:10 the next day. Only 9h40min night sleep.

Yesterday I didn’t intend to cut his am nap, but he woke up after 35min. (9:48-10:23) Then he had a very bad pm nap. Then it followed a very bad night.

Tonight he fell asleep at 7:06 (almost 6h A time) after 2.5h nap. I don’t know what will happen tomorrow.

Now everyday he wakes up at different time. (5:46-7:30) I really hope you or someone can give me some ideas as to how to get out of all these mess. Sorry for the long post and poor English. I wish you a good night. Tks again.

[emmas]

Just a couple of thoughts - after a short nap do you reduce the next A time?  So say its normally 4 hours, after a 35 min nap I would be putting him down after a maximum of 3 hours.

Also is he in pain with teething or an ear infection?  The not wanting to lay down could be pain.  I find on occasions that ds falls asleep upright on me if I lay him horizontally in my arms before laying him in the cot he tends to stir but not wake.

[smum]

Hi emmas! Glad to hear from you. Because my son is not an independent sleeper, I usually bring him into the bed at least 30-40min before he falls asleep. First I'll wait him to show me his sleeping signs (rubbing his eyes, yawn) Then I try my best to let him fall asleep at or before 20min. Recently he is so difficult to close his eyes, especially at his pm nap. So it may delay 10-20min. If he has 35min am nap, his A time now is inconsistent, 3h20m,3h27m, 3h38m, and 3h45min are ever occurred. Yesterday he had am nap 9:48-10:23. Then he rubbed his eyes at 1:10. So I tried my best to let him sleep at 1:30.(I hoped he can sleep 1.5h from 1:30-3:00) But recently he often refuses to lie down. Finally he fell asleept at 1:52pm then had a very tottering bad nap till 2:53pm.

[Samuel's mum]

I'm not a sleep expert at all and I'm no use on routines but I would suggest a doctor's trip to check out his ears as the pp has mentioned. This age group are so prone to ear infections and it would explain his desire to be upright.
Anything new in his diet? May he be experiencing reflux? I think a doctor's visit is worthwhile to rule some stuff out.

[smum]

Hi Samuel's mum! (My son is also Samuel.) Tks for reminding me. When my hubby coaxs my son to sleep, he doesn't ask his dad to hold him upright and my hubby can just lie in bed with him after some PU/PD. But when I lie in bed, my son will go to me, even pull my hair. When I sit, he likes to stand behind my back to pull my hair. Finally when he feels tired and can't fall asleep, he'll cry so loudly adn ask me to hold him upright. He may calm down but won't fall asleep this way.  This morning he cried so hysterically again no matter how I held him.When I left him, he cries more loudly. This situation just began from 4 days ago. So yesterday morning, I asked his dad to coax him to sleep, he fell asleep within his A time. (3h37m) but woke up after his 35min jolt. I feel so confused and exhausted.

[smum]

BTW, do you (all) think I should let him have only one nap and bring his bedtime earlier? If I let him have two naps, I need to cut them both to protect his bedtime. Even I can keep his bedtime at 8-8:30. The results were so contradictory. Sometimes before 6:30, sometimes not. If he wakes up before 6:30 and I keep his bedtime 8-8:30, I know it's a long day for him. Even so, his night sleep is longer if he has two good naps. When he sleeps till 7-7:30 and I keep his bedtime at 8:25-8:40, his night sleep is not consistent, 1/2 chance less than 10hrs. I just don't understand. Maybe I should let him have a lh am nap instead of 1.5h and let him have a longer pm nap? His total sleep in a day ranges from 11h-13h20m (rare). Mostly 12-12.5h. I'm so worried about his short of sleep. The past 4 days drived me more crazy about his sleep. I'm so afraid that he'll woke up at 5am tomorrow morning. How should I arrange his two naps? So much headache

[emmas]

Its a really tough transistion from 2 to 1 nap - and no two babies handle it the same way.  For me EW were because he only wanted one nap, but a 10.5 hour sleep for us also means he is OT.

If I was you I would decide which nap he is less likely to fight and make that the longest nap, I would also keep the short nap to at least 45 mins so he gets the benefit of a complete sleep cycle.

He does sound as if he is really over tired, I would reduce the A time before bed so he is not going to bed OT and I would be using any means I could to get him to go to sleep - it sounds like you need to get him caught up on his sleep, then work on the transistion to one nap, then work on the independent sleeping.  I would attempt a nap after 3 hours A time for the next few days and see how long his naps are then?

Could be a bit of separation anxiety?  Anything going on developmentally - talking etc?

Does that make any sense/help?

[smum]

Hi emmas. Tks again. I notice my son's A time right now is no way back to 3hr. When he is extremely tired, his shortest A time is 3h12min. And his A time normally is 3h37-40m btwn wake-up and am nap.

If he wakes at 5:50-6:20, I usually let him have a long am nap for 1h25-1h35m (must cut it bf 11:30) then a short nap for 40-1h. Bedtime 8:10-8:28. Usually after two days of sleeping less than 10hrs like this, there will be one day that he can wake around 6:46-6:56.

When he wakes around 6:46-6:56, I usually let him have a long am nap for at least 1h20m(10:33-) and a short 35m catnap. It brings me trouble. Sometimes night sleep still more than 10h20min, sometimes less than 10hrs. On 8/17, he had only 1h am nap and a short nap for 40m, then his night sleep next day was 11h15min till 7:30. (I cut it) This way daytime sleep is only 1h40m instead of 2h.

Now his A time btwn am nap and pm nap is so unpredictable, ranging from 3h27,3h37,3h45,3h50,4h. So it's a little difficult for me to predict what time his pm nap time will be. I don't like his pm nap startting between 3:30-4:00. I don't know how long I should let him sleep.

I'm really tired of cutting his naps. Originally I want to keep his am nap b/c his am nap is usually a good long one. Now in order to squeeze a 2nd nap, I need to cut his am nap, too. If I cut his am nap to 1h only so that his pm nap can be increased to 40min above, his total daytime sleep is less this way. Both naps are short.

My trouble is even when he can sleep 10h more and wakes after 6:46 or even after 7:00, I don't know how to arrange his naps to keep these good days and maximize his total sleep in a day. Especially when he wakes up at 7:30 (11h), there are only 13hrs left and I need to squeeze in 2 naps. Now when I tried long am/short pm again, I feel like I'm gambling. 10h more or less, it would be the question.  

[emmas]

I think at this age their sleep cues are unreliable and you would be better off sticking to a set A time or set nap times - their bodies seem to cope better with a set pattern, and the naps should lengthen.

The reason I suggested a 3 hour A time is few a few days to catch up on the sleep, maybe 3hrs 30 would be better for you - personally I would only cut one nap short not both, for me it was easier to allow a long am nap and short pm nap, I played around with A times after various length naps, sometimes he was needing a nap at 5, so I would only let him sleep for 10 mins, that kept him going for 2 hours so he could be in bed for 7, a 30 min nap for me meant he could cope with 4 hours A time and anything over 45 mins would be a 5 hour A time.  I had to be inventive with the pm nap it was usually in the stroller/car etc otherwise I'd never get him down.