Sleeping thru the night - naps now gone wrong?

[eshea]

A couple of questions and I couldn't find the answers on other threads, but I know I read it somewhere!  Please feel free tp move if this is best addressed in a different place.

My girl is almost 5 mths and on a 4 hr EASY.

We've had three nights of sleeping through - with the DF at 10 or so - and it is wonderful!  Naps have gotten a little screwy, and I'm guessing it's because the sleeping at night has changed.  She was having 1.5 hrs of nap, but now the morning is short again and she's making her happy noises at 45 min.  I try to get her back down, and then she winds up frustrated.  What to do?

Also, LO has started waking around DF time.  The last feeding has been bumped up until 6 to make room for an earlier bedtime, and I've been going in to DF around 10:15.  The past three nights she has woken up right before I get to her room but after eating goes back to sleep.  Do I need to try an earlier DF time to get her out of the habit, and then make sure I change the time so she doesn't wake?  Or is this even a problem and I should be thankful we've come this far?

Also - if I hear the hungry cry at 5am, feed her, and put her back, I'm assuming we still continue with our 7am feeding and carry on with our day as normal, right?

Thanks!

[brenda2]

great nights!!  good for you and her!

if she's waking after 45 min happy she likely needs slightly longer A times.  can you post your routine?  or what happened yesterday?

waking around the df time is common and fine.  if you want to move it to 10 to beat her to it that would be ok.

if she's starving at 5 am yes feed her and then start again at 7 am.  if you notice that she won't take much at 7 am try limiting how much she takes at 5 am (if bfing just let her take less time at the breast)

[marensmama]

Hi there.  Wow, sleeping through the night!  I'm envious!  My DD2 still doesn't at 10.5 months!  

Generally, 45 minute naps would mean that she is UT and may need more A time in that first block, especially since she is waking up happy.

As far as the DF, I never did one with either of my girls, so I really couldn't answer that with any experience to back me up.  However, I think as long as she's going back to sleep right after the feed, I wouldn't worry about it.  In terms of the 5 am feed, it's possible that she might not be really hungry by 7, so if she wasn't you could move that feed to 7:30 or 7:45 and do AEASY during that first block.

HTH!

Just posted at same time as Brenda.  Great minds and all...

[eshea]

Thanks for the tips.

We follow the 4 hr EASY that Tracy has in the book...
7am E
8:45 Quiet Time before nap
9:00 S
11:00 E
12:45 Quiet Time
1:00 S
3:00E
4:30/4:45 cat nap (she seems to need it this early)
6:00E or a little later, depending on how she is and where we are
bedtime routine
7:00 in bed, but usually not sleeping until 7:30
10:15 DF

We have been working really hard on independent sleep this past week, and we don't necessarily agree on the use of the pacifier (she has discovered the thumb, but not when she is already OT).  I think we're not consistent and she realizes this - and might cry as a result.

I wonder if the morning A time is too calm for a good long morning nap?  Today she woke at 6 and was very chatty for 45 min, and then she put herself to sleep.  I got her at 7 but tried to keep her up until morning nap time, and she had a tough time going down.  We'll see how the nap goes.  Usually in the morning she watches from a chair as I do things in the kitchen, diaper change, maybe a book or two.  We normally get dressed and ready for the day after this morning nap.

She woke twice last night, but got back down with pat/shh so perhaps our lucky streak is over.  Honestly, I think I'd rather have longer naps and a little less sleep on my part at night, but I should be careful what I wish for! 

[brenda2]

hi
if she is sleeping for 2 hours (like from 9-11am when the next feed is)  this routine is fine...however i'm assuming she's doing 45 min like you previously said but you haven't posted awake times...

if she is doing only short naps you have to shorten the following A time to 1.5 hours max and fit in more naps.  it is fine to feed every 4 hours and fit in naps around the feeds.  so she will be having more naps in a day and EASy will look more like EASAS, this is to avoid OT.

so she may do:
7 awake and E
9-9:45 sleep
11 E
11:15-? sleep ...if this is a long nap follow with 2 hours A time, but if it is short do another nap after 1.5 hours which in this case would mean:
11:15-12 sleep
1:30-3(hopefully) sleep
3 E

here's a link:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=128419.0

[eshea]

Yes, sorry, I forgot the awake times during naps.  Today has been like this:

6:45 awake, swaqked in crib
7:00E
7:20-8:45 gentle A time
8:45-9 QT (book, silent time snuggles)
9-9:20 fussed before nap, PU/PD, asleep at 9:20
9:40 cried out, sh/pat
10:15 cried out, sh/pat
11:00 went to her room to get her, she was happy and awake in crib
11:00E
11:25-12:30 Activity
12:30-12:45 transition time (the start of QT but not the start of the 4S routine - this seems to help), we walk around the house, watch the cars outside, etc.
12:45-1:00 QT
1:00 asleep, no fuss, felt very successful!
1:25 cried out sh/pat and led to GREAT afternoon nap
2:45 she woke up, little A time
3:00 E

Right now we have a little A time and then we watch for her sleepy cues for the cat nap.  The afternoon nap felt like old times again. 

Thanks for the suggestion for another nap.  I'll keep it in mind for when she wakes happy at the 45 min mark.  However, you wouldn't use this if she wakes still sleepy, right?  Otherwise we welcome back the short-nap monster, which we have tried to get away from.  I'm still assuming that if she cries out and needs more sleep (red eyes, rubbing, crying) you try to extend the nap for as long as you can (or until the next feed), right?

It has been a great learning tool for us to watch her learn to sleep independently.  We hear her sounds now much better to know when she's giving a mantra cry or when she needs to be picked up.  I feel like the pieces are coming together...just a few strange issues we need to resolve.

Thanks!

[brenda2]

hi
yes, if she wakes unhappy and still sleepy you try to get her back down.  but if you are unsuccesful or if she wakes happy and yu are unable to put her back down you try again for another nap about 1.5 hours after she gets up (include time spent resettling if you are unsuccesful in this time).

i think you would do better if you count A time instead of going by the clock time.  so if she gets up at 6:45 your first nap should be her asleep at 8:45 at the latest.  start winddown before this.

[eshea]

Thanks.  This morning she started talking at 6:30 and then put herself back to sleep about five or ten minutes later.  I went to get her at 7:15 to eat, and after some nice activity time she got sleepy around 8:30.  We had a very short wind down and she slept without any waking for an hour and a half.  (Actually, she is quiet again...so she must have found that thumb and is back to sleep.)

Yesterday afternoon the nap was also very good.  I was worried she would have a hard time, since we had been out on errands and got stuck in traffic before getting home for her nap.  She grabbed a few minutes sleep in the car, but after starting the 4S routine she quickly remembered it was still sleepy time and had an uninterrupted hour and an half nap. 

I see that the key is definitely less-is-more for the A time.  We don't need to wind her all up to help her sleep better, but in fact we need less to get more sleep!

Thanks again for the help.

[brenda2]

sounds like she is doing well 

[eshea]

Okay - new things have sprouted up, as they always seem to. 

For the past week she has been waking very early in the morning and chatting to herself.   She started waking around 6:15 but it seems to have gotten progressively earlier this week.  I don't go get her until 7, as she is happy sounding until about then.  I didn't think it was a problem but it seems to be interfering with morning nap (which has also been getting progressively earlier, as a result.)  She is sleeping through the night after the DF, so should I just be thankful for that and ignore the early bird singing?

Also, she still take a catnap and goes to bed at 7 with no fuss, but has been waking at 9 screaming.  Sometimes she can get resettled, but for the most part she doesn't go back to sleep until I feed her.  I've been holding out as long as I can, hoping that somenight she will just stay asleep until 10 or 10:30, but I don't know if I'm serving a good purpose or not.

Any advice?  This can be moved, too, I just thought I would post where any helpful advice-givers can backtrack to see our history and EASY routine. 

[brenda2]

hi
how old is she now?  can you post your typical routine?

it may be a sign she needs more A time and is gearing up to drop the catnap.  usually with Ews try to keep the morning nap late so they can't catch up on night sleep that they lost by waking too early so quickly.

[eshea]

She is nearly six months old, still BF (we haven't started any solids yet), and sleeps independently.  Our typical routine is like this:

7 E (even if she is up at 6:15 she stays in her crib until 7)
7:20-8:30ish A
8:45 S (this has been earlier lately when she gets up so early - husband puts her down for this nap since I'm at work, and he tries very hard to keep her up as long as he can without going overboard)
10:00/10:15 A
11:00 E
11:20-12:30 A
12:30 S (tends to be the longer nap, but if not I try my best to let her have quiet time in the crib until at least 2:30)
2:30A
3:00 E
3:20 A
catnap usually occurs around 4 or 4:30
6 E
bath/book
6:45/7 bedtime

She hardly ever fusses before sleeping now - we've done a good job of tuning in to her sleep signs and make sure to get her down before she is OT.  Most naps she won't stir, but if she does at 30 she can get herself back to sleep.  She normally wakes quite happy, be it an hour and fifteen minutes or longer from the nap.

The 9pm wake up tends to involve a lot of screaming.

Tonight she missed the catnap, but also had a late 3:00E time, so she ate at 6:30 and still was in bed at the 7pm mark.

Thanks for any help you can provide! Just when I feel we had the 4hr EASY undercontrol something new comes up.  I think I'm always a few steps behind the developmental times.  She has been a lot more mobile lately (rolling around and such), so I wonder if her change can be attributed to this?  Chances are there is something else I'm missing. 

[eshea]

Some updates about last night...

She was alseep at usual bedtime and woke at 9:15.   She didn't scream, but she didn't get resettled for about an hour.  She would cry, suck her thumb, cry, suck her thumb, etc.  I did shhh/pat with her but she wouldn't fall back asleep.  I decided to leave the room when she wasn't crying and then come back in a few minutes later when she was still quiet to feed her.  As a result, the DF was at 10:15, so she had been awake for an hour. 

She slept until 2 and was up from 2-3 doing the same thing - cry, suck, cry, suck, etc.  I thought she might be hungry, since it has been a good month since she's woken at this time, so I fed her at 3 and she seemed to take quite a bit of milk.  She slept until 6 and then did the cry, suck, cry off and on.  DH was with her and I don't remember what time she finally quit.  She slept and I went to get her at 7:30 and she ate.

We did 2hrs of activity time this morning and she seemed to manage quite fine - no fussing - going down for the nap.  Looking forward to your advice! 

[brenda2]

so are you mostly doing 2 hours A time or 2.5 hours?  why did she skip the catnap yesterday?  were you out or did she refuse?

what are you doing when she wakes at night?

have you tried feeding her when she wakes at 9pm, like doing the df early?

usually with EWs you would try to stretch her as long as possible for that first nap.  try for 2.5hours at least.  this doesn't allow them to make up that lost nighttime sleep so quickly.

[eshea]

We are mostly doing two hours of A time, although now and then it is a little longer.  The catnap was missed because we were out and about.  She is so in the habit of sleeping in the crib that she doesn't stay asleep or fall asleep too much in the car anymore.

When she wakes at night we reswaddle her (she keeps one arm out for thumb sucking but seems to like the other one down) and shh her.  We don't pat anymore, but perhaps we should.  We haven't needed to do much PU/PD lately becaue the crying is so off and on.  We also offer her the paci.  She doesn't use it to fall asleep, but sometimes it helps extend naps, so we've been trying it these past few nights.

I hadn't fed her in the middle of the night for a long time (since we stared the DF).  Last night I wondered if she was waking due to hunger, since it was such a random time to wake.  She slept fine until 9:45pm so I did the DF early.  She then woke at 4:30 and wouldn't resettle with the techniques we used.  She sucked and cried, so I fed her.  She took a 15 minute feed and I put her right back to sleep.  She was then up for the day at 6:30 crying, whereas she used to be happy. 

How long should little tummies be able to go right now on breast milk alone?  If I end up DF her early, between 9 and 10 or whenever she wakes, should she be able to make it until 7am for the next nursing?