On 4/4 schedule but NF more frequent than ever

[jonihoadley]

I transitioned by LO to the 4/4 schedule a few days ago. Her days are great, but nights are terrible. Last night, she woke up at least 6 times (and I BF her 4 of those times). I'm exhausted and unfortunately, my maternity leave ends next week so I'm afraid i won't be able to cope at all once I'm at work and she's in daycare.

Here's our routine:

E: 7.00 wake up and feed
A: 7.15 (note she doesn't feed for very long; not sure if she's just efficient?)
S: 9.00 (for 45 min nap; she wakes up happy after this one so I think that's just her biorhythm)
E: 11.00
A: 11.15
S: 1.00 (1.5-2hr nap, )
E: 3.00
A: 3.15
S: 5.00 - catnap
A: 6:00 (bath around 6:30)
E: 7.00
S: 7.15 bedtime
E: 10 or 11pm dreamfeed

Lately, she's begun waking before 10 p.m. and then has been waking every 2 hours. Prior to this (when on the 3-hour schedule), she was waking at 1 a.m. and 4 a.m. That was much better for all of us than the current NWs.

Please help. I was hoping to get her down to just one NF at this point, if any at all. What should I do?!?

[Bryony]

Hi there

a few queestions:

How old is your LO?

Can she get to sleep on her own for naps and bedtimes or does she need some help from you (eg dummy, rocking)?

What A times have you been working on?  (ie time between waking up and being asleep again)

Bryony

[jonihoadley]

Oops... sorry I left out her age. She just turned 4 months old. She does great during the day. She is usually awake for 1.5-2 hours for A time. For naps, we put her in her crib when she's still awake and she falls asleep on her own.

But at night, it's a different story. Here's what happened in the evening after her usual daytime schedule (listed above):

S: 6-6:30 p.m.  (late catnap)
A: 6:30-7
E: 7 (usual time)
A: 7:15-7:40 (bath)
S: 8
A: 10 (she woke up before the DF; Husband thought he could've gotten her back to sleep but I fed her anyways)
A: midnight (husband got her back to sleep)
A/S: 1 (husband got her back to sleep but she woke up when he put her down; this happened twice; frustrated, he finally got me and I BF her). She fell asleep, but again, it took 2 attempts for her to stay asleep
A/S: 4: I got her back to sleep and she woke up once I put her down; this happened twice over the course of 30 minutes. I then succumbed to BF her even though her cries were not out of hunger. She was doing a lot of kicking and moving around. I was finally so frustrated, I found my husband sleeping in the living room (where he was trying to get away from the noise and get a decent night sleep) where I proceeded to lose my sh*t. I screamed and cried and thought I was going to lose my mind. Husband told me to turn off the monitor and try to sleep (although at this point, I was so upset, I thought this might be impossible; it was also 5 a.m. at this point). He spent another hour trying to get her to sleep. He finally put her in the swing because she was wide awake.
E: 7 (she ate very well and proceeded to go back to sleep for 90 minutes).

Back to what we're doing to get her to sleep at night, we give her a paci and hold her. I know this is accidental parenting but we don't want her crying and waking up our 3 year old. (side note: how do other parents handle older siblings possibly waking up during the night when sleep training?)

We're so frustrated and willing to do anything. I have to go back to work part time next week and full-time the following week so we really want to get her to sleep better ASAP. What should we be doing?

Also, am I the only one who's losing her cool? I'm wondering if this is normal or if I should call someone about postpartum depression? I think I'm simply suffering from weeks of sleep deprivation, but want to make sure it's nothing more than that.

Joni

[Bryony]

Hi Joni!

(HUGSS)

I know how frustrating and stressful it is when you are working and they are sleeping so badly! My LO is awake for several hours every night at the moment screaming with pain from teething her eye teeth, and wakes to start the day around 5:30am - and I really struggle in work as I am so sleep deprived. But you do cope, somehow - I go to bed around 8pm most nights and have got used to surviving on a lot less sleep than my usual 8hrs a night!  If you think you are suffering from PPD though you should go and see a doctor to get checked out - if you have PPD then meds will make you feel a lot better. Lack of sleep makes anyone feel down though - I am in tears most mornings about how I am going to cope with the day but I always do!  So do get checked for PPD - but what you describe also sounds like pretty normal sleep deprivation behaviour too.   And we all need to lose our cool and rant sometimes!!

Now in terms of your older LO, check out the "and then there were two" board for some ideas - it's a really common problem!

I am wondering though if she is OT due to not enough naps in the day. If I understand it right, she wakes up and has 2hrs A time then a 45 min nap. Then she is awake from 9:45am to 1pm, is that right?  that's a whopping 3.25hrs A time - which sounds way too long for her age to me. A times at 4 months are usually about 2hrs. Then she has 2hrs A time until another 45 min nap - then 1.5hrs A time which sounds about right. So I'm wondering if you need to either try and extend that first nap (perhaps slightly longer A time if she's waking up happy?) or fit in another nap somehere. how long is her catmap?

In terms of the resettling at night - does she need her dummy to go to sleep for bedtime too? I am wondering if this is a prop and that she's got reliant on you helping her to get to sleep. It's really common for the dummy to become a problem around 4 months of age. It may be that you need to get rid of this and use shh/pat to help her go back to sleep when she wakes in the night. check out the props board for some more info on getting rid of the dummy. You will have a few rough nights initially (warn your three year old!) but it will be worth it in the long run

I am afraid there aren't any magic answers - I wish there were as I would have used them myself as well as for everyone on these boards!!

Bryony x

[jonihoadley]

Good catch on the morning naps. Her longest period of A time is never more than 2 hours. But because that morning nap is so short, she ends up needing another one right around the time that she's due to eat for the 2nd time of the day. This throws off her whole schedule so she ends up often eating and then sleeping rather than the other way around. Today her routine is more like this:

E: 7.00 wake up and feed
A: 7.15 (note she doesn't feed for very long; not sure if she's just efficient?)
S: 8:45 (for 45 min nap; she wakes up happy after this one so I think that's just her biorhythm)
A: 9:30
E: 10:45
S: 11 (this nap can usually be 1.5-2 hours if we're lucky)
A: 1
E: 2:45
S: 3
A: 4:30
S: 5:45 (catnap is 30-45 min)
A: 6:30
E: 7.00
S: 7.30 bedtime
E: 10 or 11pm dreamfeed

I don't think the paci is a prop at this point, although I could be wrong. It usually falls out of her mouth once she's in a deep sleep. She might be able to get herself to sleep without it keeps her quiet so it's really more of a prop for us instead of her. I'll check out the board on "and then there were two".

Tonight we're going to try and limit her BFs to the dream feed around 11 and a NF at 3. If she wakes at any other times, we're going to try PU/PD without the paci.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Joni

[jonihoadley]

Tonight has been sheer madness. LO went to bed around usual time. Here's how the evening progressed:

9:30: woke up; fed her since she was close to DF (previous BF was at 6:30); note that this is the 3rd night in a row in which she has awakened before the 10 a.m. DF.
11:30: woke up again; since she only BF on one side, I fed her on the other; she fell asleep and I put her in her crib
1:00: awake; hubby spent one hour doing shush/pat and PU/PD; I finally went in at 2; She literally cried the entire 90 minutes. I couldn't take it any more and BF her. I did put her in her crib while still awake (at 2:45) and she went to sleep on her own
3:45: awake and has been crying ever since; i changed her diaper but that didn't seem to be the problem but it did stop her from crying initially; she was even smiling. i put her back in her crib and she was wide awake. I left to come out here to read the boards and find some help while hubby takes over. He now has her in the garage (furthest room from the bedrooms) so that her cries don't wake up our oldest one. He also thinks I should be able to sleep through her crying, which i can't. He also wants to give her a paci. I said no.

My alarm is set to go off in 2 hours. I don't know how I'm going to make it.

What are you supposed to do when LO cries for so long and seems inconsolable?
Why is she waking up so often?
Why is she staying awake for so long each time?

[Bryony]

Hi Joni

that sounds like a much better routine! 

If you are going to do PU/PD you really do need to ditch the dummy - there is a FAQ on the PU/PD board which explains why.  If she needs it to go to sleep then yes it's a prop and may well be the answer to your problems!  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=67675.0

I think she's waking becuase she needs the dummy to go to sleep - that would be my guess if the problems started around 4 months of age.  So you have two options - cold turkey, or gradual withdrawal. See http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=2361.0

Bryony xx

[jonihoadley]

I'm not sure what you mean by much better routine? At any rate, last night was aweful (one of the worse ever) but she did make it without the paci.

[Bryony]

I meant that her A times were more in line with those for her age!

Sorry you had such a rough night - but WELL DONE on doing it without the dummy!  Give it three nights and I am sure she will be sleeping better.... and then we can see as at least we will know that the dummy is not the problem

xx

[jonihoadley]

Thanks for the clarification. We're going to go cold turkey w/the paci tonight. Unfortunately, LO and SO both have colds so tonight could be rough.

About last night, I do have some questions:

What are you supposed to do when LO cries for so long and seems inconsolable? Crying f or 90 minutes seems excessive. Was I wrong to nurse her then? Nothing else would console her.

Why is she staying awake for so long each time? 2nights in a row, she's awakened at 4 and was wide awake; wouldn't go back to sleep for an hour.

Thanks!

[tired56]

Hi Joni

Sorry to hear you are having such a tough time.  It sounds just like what we have been going through, and I have felt the same as you (and still do sometimes).  My DS is 11.5 months and DD is nearly 3.  I am lucky and have my mum round to help out a lot, and my DH has just has some time off work so we could sort out DS's sleep problems.  I definitely start to feel depressed when I am sleep deprived and I have to keep telling myself that is why I feel strange, but some days are better than others.  When we did the sleep training recently, our DD did get woken up so whoever wasn't with our DS went to our DD so help her get back to sleep.  However, this still disrupted her quite a lot and she has ended up very grumpy during the day and needing naps again.  We also waited until DH had some holiday so that one of us could take DD out during the day sometimes whilst one of stayed at home with DS.  I know you don't have this luxury though as you are due back at work.  Is there anyone who could come round to help you out for a few days?  I hope you get this sorted soon.  My DS's sleep problems are mostly due to OT - he was waking for hours in the night, but we seem to have sorted this for now.  His sleep is still all over the place though and we have EWs because we just can't get his naps right! 

Good luck with it all!!
Katherine

[Bryony]

Joni - if she has a cold you might want to wait until it's better - its tough on your LO to do any form of sleep training when they are not well. Obviously you know how ill (or not) she is - but if she's uncomfortable and miserable I would try not to go "backwards" in terms of where you are now (if that makes sense) but not try and do any additional sleep training.

It is so hard when they cry for so long - maybe she wasn't feeling well due to the cold cominig on? All you can do is be consistent and calm, doing shh/pat and talking to her gently and doing whatever works for you. If you think she's hungry then obvously feed - if you really don't think she's hungry then you want to try to avoid BF for comfort. Although I suspect we have all done it sometimes - I have when I've been desparate -  but you need to be really careful not to get into a habit!!

That waking at 4hrs - was she happy or cross?  Most likely this means she's OT or UT - from your routine and her 45 min naps I would guess OT more likely

Hope tonight is not too bed - it's hard when they have a cold though

xx

[jonihoadley]

Thanks, Bryony. Last night wasn't too bad. Here's what I did. I set my alarm for 10 p.m., midnight and 3 p.m. and did dream feeds each time. My strategy was to catch her before she woke up on her own and that seemed to work. Unfortunately, she did wake up at 4:30 (again) but I was able to get her back to sleep without BF or paci.

I thought given that she's sick, the dream feeds would keep her hydrated and hopefully keep her sleeping. It also helped my husband get a good night sleep as he is now sick too. I will probably try this again tonight, but will only do so while she's sick. Hopefully, we'll be able to get back to sleep training on Friday and take advantage of the weekend.

I'll report back later.

[Bryony]

sounds great!  so pleased last night was good

keep us posted

x