Morning nap always short - please help

[Tobysmum]

Hi, we are still working on EASY (particularly regard to regular nap times and length of naps).
The first nap of the day is always short - it's been short for months to be honest.  I am not sure if he'll just be a short napper or whether I need to extend it or not.  I am a big fan of BW but I also have the dreaded Gina Ford Contented Baby book and she only has babies having a 30-45 min nap in the morning.  I am slightly confused as to why Contented baby Babies are ok with this length naps and BW babies need 1.5-2 hrs! 

Whenever I put him down in the morning he always wakes up at around the 30 min mark, and occasionally the 45 min mark.  I have been able to extend it a little bit but only very slightly.

Yesterday he woke at 7am and went to sleep at 9.15am (put him down at 8.55am).  He then woke at 8.45 (seemingly wide awake) but I tried PU/PD - it took 25 mins to get him to sleep for a further 5 mins.  I then did it again and he went to sleep for a further 10 mins which brought us to 10.30am when I got him up.

Today he woke up at about 6.50am (after lots of night wakings) and he went to sleep at 9.00am.  He woke at 9.35am.  I did PU/PD for about 10 mins and he went to sleep for a further 15 mins, at which point it was 10.10am approx so I got him up.

How should I deal with this short first nap?  Should I accept that some babies have short first naps or should I try to extend it.

Ideally I'd like him to nap sometime when my toddler naps (1-3/3.30) for his second nap.

I'm still working on EASY but yesterday looked like this:
A 6.55am
E 7.00am  (BF)
E 8.45am (rice cereal)
S 9.15am (put down at 8.55am)
He woke at 9.45am.  Did PU/PD for 25 mins and he went to sleep for a further 5 mins.  Then did it again and he went to sleep for 10 mins.  I got him up at 10.30am as it clearly wasn't going to work anymore.
A 10.30am
E 11.10am (BF)
E 11.45 (rice cereal)
S 12.20pm (put down at 12.10pm)
He woke up at 1.00pm - did PU/PD very briefly and he went back to sleep.
A 2.15pm (I woke him up as it had been 2 hrs)
E 3.05pm (BF)
S 5.00pm (catnap in his swing as I find it impossible to get him down in his crib for this nap)
A 5.30pm
E 5.45pm (rice cereal)
A Bath etc
E 6.40pm (BF)
S 7.05

We had lots of NWs last night (approx 8, 10.20 for DF, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5.40) - I wonder if I am doing something wrong with naps to cause this?

[Tobysmum]

Forgot to say, baby is 6 months old.
My other question is, if he has a 30 min nap in the morning (like today and yesterday), then the afternoon nap (say 2 hrs - as I have to wake him up from it at 2.15 as that's when he's due his feed and we aren't supposed to let them sleep longer than their feed are we?) - and then he has a catnap - how long should the catnap be to make sure he gets his full day's sleep?
Today is looking similar to yesterday - I'll have to wake him at 2.15 as his last feed was at 10.15.
Is that enough sleep:

Morning nap - 35 mins
Afternoon nap - 2 hrs
Cat cap??

Trying to avoid what happened last night

[deckchariot]

I'm wondering if he's not tired at the 2 hr mark (which is why he doesn't go to sleep right away), but then after 20 min of not sleeping, he falls off OT and wakes after 30 min.  I might try putting him down at 2 hrs 15 min rather than 2 hrs and see what happens.  I found that my dd stopped giving clear tired cues as she got older, and I could pretty easily extend her just by switching up her activity. 

Is he waking crying?  I see you doing pu/pd, but you mention that he's waking wide awake.  PU/pd will only work if he's waking up crying.  If it's a mantra cry, again, I'd leave him and see if he'll settle.

Also, if his nap is short and you cannot extend him, you'll want to shorten his next A time so he doesn't get OT as the day goes on.  Here's  a link that talks more about that: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=128419.0

Here's a link on total "average" sleep times, so you can see what you're aiming for overall: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85130.0

hang in there!!!!
michelle

[Tobysmum]

OK, I guess I'll try extending the A time tomorrow morning and see how we go.  I see your point about not doing pu/pd if he's happy.  I will have to take that into account - is pu/pd worth doing if you only get them to sleep for a further 15 mins (which we did today) or less?  Today has been good apart from that short first nap.  If tonight goes well, I'll be wondering if it's worth messing with the first short nap!

Today has been :

E 5.40am (gave in and fed after lots of night wakings)
A 6.50am approx (I am not sure if heard exactly when he woke up)
E 7.00 Small top up BF
E 8.05am (Pumpkin and rice cereal mixed)
S 9.00am (put down at 8.55am)
Woke up 9.35am
PU/PD back to sleep at 9.50am
A 10.05am
E 10.15am (BF)
E 11.15am (rice cereal)
S 12.00/12.05 (put down 11.55)
Woke up at 1.08pm
PU/PD back to sleep 1.21pm for 4 mins, then pu/pd again back to sleep at 1.25pm
A 2.20pm (he woke up on my way to wake him up as his feed was due)
E 2.30pm
S 4.40pm (gone down for catnap in his crib AMAZING - as last few days he's only catnapped in swing - went straight down no fussing!)
He's asleep now.

I guess we'll have to see how tonight goes as to whether this is what is going to work for us - i.e. whether to leave that short nap or extend it?

Any further thoughts?

[deckchariot]

I guess it depends on how he does - at his age, 4-6 hrs of day sleep is "average", so if he gets around that total with a short morning nap, then I wouldn't worry about it.  Also, if he seems happy with a short am nap, long midday nap and longer catnap (1 hr...ish..), then I'd say he's just on the shorter end of sleep needs.  But if he's not, and he's not happy, then I'd tweak the routine.

We almost never used pu/pd - it's designed to be a last resort - if you cannot get them back to sleep any other way and they are crying.  Have you tried pat/shh or any variation to extend his naps or have you just done pu/pd?  I would not use pu/pd if he's not crying - that's not what it's designed for, I'd try pat/shh or some variation instead - otherwise, you're teaching him that when he wakes early, you will pick him up.  If you've been doing pu/pd for awhile when he's not crying, that could be what's going on.  He wakes in between sleep cycles, and now he needs you to get him back to sleep.  if you've not been doing it that long, then it's not a prop, but I would stop doing it if he's not crying.

hth
michelle

[Tobysmum]

Well, he's not getting the 4-6 of daytime sleep - yesterday he got just over 3 hrs, today he got under 3.5 hrs and today he got about the same. 

As far as pu/pd is concerned, I'm pretty sure we do to it only when he's crying at night.  I honestly can't say for sure, but perhaps I have been doing it to try and extend that morning nap when he's not really crying. 

I see what ou mean about if he seems happy with the short am nap and then a long midday nap - but the problem maybe having a 30-45 min cat nap - I don't think that's long enough and it's causing him to be OT. 

For example, look at today (he's now gone to bed for the night).  He wasn't particularly happy after he woke up from the catnap - just fussed quite a bit and then ended up being tired before 6.00pm.  I didn't try and extend that catnap because I would have thought that is the one nap that's probably impossible to extend - correct me if I'm wrong.  As you'll see, he was awake from 2.20pm until I put him to bed at 6.15pm with only a 30 min catnap in between - that's clearly a very long A time for him.  He did not go down easily tonight, he was OT I could tell.

So, the obvious solution at this stage is how to extend that first nap - do you agree?  As he wakes up after 30 mins, could he be overtired?  Alternatively, someone suggested perhaps he's UT and I should extend the A period.  I am not sure what to do - the fact that he has to have that 2nd nap so early really throws things off.  Tonight will probably be bad with perhaps an early wake up as he went down so early - grrr.

Any suggestions on what I've said?

E 5.40am (gave in and fed after lots of night wakings)
A 6.50am approx (I am not sure if heard exactly when he woke up)
E 7.00 Small top up BF
E 8.05am (Pumpkin and rice cereal mixed)
S 9.00am (put down at 8.55am)
Woke up 9.35am
PU/PD back to sleep at 9.50am
A 10.05am
E 10.15am (BF)
E 11.15am (rice cereal)
S 12.00/12.05 (put down 11.55)
Woke up at 1.08pm
PU/PD back to sleep 1.21pm for 4 mins, then pu/pd again back to sleep at 1.25pm
A 2.20pm (he woke up on my way to wake him up as his feed was due)
E 2.30pm
S 4.40pm (gone down for catnap in his crib AMAZING - as last few days he's only catnapped in swing - went straight down no fussing!)
He's asleep now.

[Tobysmum]

Also, as I think you'll agree, I'm probably getting the A time right for the second nap - 2 hrs, as he slept for over 2 hrs.  Would you agree? 

Due to him having a short nap, this A time is probably shorter than what he could handle with the right amount of sleep? (perhaps he could usually handle 2.5 hrs?).  Also, from what I understand, the first A time is usually shorter than the rest, so perhaps, as you say I could try putting him down for his first nap after approx 2hrs 15 mins.
I guess that sounds logical.
Obviously, if he seems tired before then (perhaps due to a bad night), then I just have to put him down.

Saying that, I generally always respond to his tiredness cues rather than watching the clock - so am slightly worried about making the A time longer.

Will see how we go.

Fingers crossed tonight won't be as bad as last night - despite me thinking that he was very OT tonight.

[Tobysmum]

Sorry, me again.   Just to answer another question that you asked,  I used to do shh/pat in the early days until Tracey said to use PU/PD.  It worked pretty well and I think it really helped him to go sleep independently.  I haven't really used it properly since then since I thought she said it was over stimulating for that age.  I do try and put him on his side (which sometimes works) and rub his back - sometimes that works but he has to be in the right frame of mind or he tries to roll back onto his back and then starts crying all over again. 
I will make a point only to do pu/pd if he's crying and not to do it if he's had a 45 min nap (as I've heard that it's almost impossible to get them back to sleep after a 45 min nap as they are most likely UT).  Correct?

[deckchariot]

You're doing great at answering your own questions   45 min naps generally indicate UT, and I do not usually have any luck extending.  30 min naps generally indicate OT, and I have had luck extending that.  If you think hes OT for that first nap, then yes, cut back to the A time a bit.  If you think he's UT, extend it a bit.  If you're not sure (sometimes their tired cues look just like "I'm bored" cues), then switch up his activity and see if that helps, and if not, off to bed. 

It does look like you're getting that 2nd nap just right.  Have you thought about not waking him for a feed to see how that goes?  With the catnap, I wouldn't try to extend that.  You can put him to bed early if he's just not making it after his catnap to his "usual" bedtime.  Most bubs with an early bedtime (if they're OT) will not actually wake earlier, but later (because they're not as OT as they would be with their regular bedtime). 

So I would say - see if a bit more or less A time in the morning helps (you know him best, so see which way you want to go - but whatever you do, try it for at least 3 days before deciding whether or not it helps).  If he wakes, try to extend - I'd go with a variation of pat/shh first (rubbing on the back is great! or even just using your voice - "it's time to sleep" etc.) and if they crying escalates and you can't calm him that way, then go to pu/pd.  I'd try no more than 30 min to extend, and then just get him up and continue with your day.  Then if he's losing it after the catnap, go for an early bedtime and see if that helps with the nights.

It looks like you're on the right track!  Sometimes that A time is just a bit of a guessing game.  Hang in there!

[Tobysmum]

Last night wasn't good - unsurprisingly I guess as I know he was OT when he went to bed due to that long A time and short catnap.

Today was much better in the nap department - especially the morning nap.  The other nap wasn't so good.
  I decided to extend his A time as someone suggested and he slept for 1 hr 15 mins!  A breakthrough indeed.  Unfortunately his second nap wasn't good though   It was only 50-55 mins.  There is a chance that my toddler could have woken him up since he was crying as he refused his nap today (a very rare thing luckily!)  Do you think he could have been undertired?
What do you think of the naps today.  Obviously first one was great.  Second one not so great.  I did the catnap after a shorter A time due to the short 2nd nap but the catnap wasn't long.  He was very happy this evening and went to bed perfectly. 

Question - if my toddler did not wake him up from the 2nd nap - why do you think it wasn't very long? Do you think he was undertired and could have had a longer A time?

Today was as follows:

E 6.05am BF (I think he fell asleep during his feed, so did I!!!)
I put him back in his bed at 6.40am
A 7.10am (was meant to be 7.00am but I'd fallen asleep again - this is when he woke himself)
E 8.00 (pumpkin with rice cereal)
S 9.15am (I gave him a very small top up of BF before his sleep otherwise he may have woken early hungry)
A 10.30am (YAY - a long morning nap at last!)
E 10.55am BF (I left it longer due to the top up before his nap - this is when he was hungry)
E 12.15 (pumpkin with rice cereal)
S 12.55 (I put him down at 12.55 as had been doing eye rub etc and I think he went pretty much straight to sleep)
A 1.50 (either my toddler woke him up or perhaps he was undertired?)  He woke up happy.
E 2.35 BF (he was VERY hungry!)
S 4.10 (I put him down after a shorter A time as he had a short nap previously and he seemed tired)
A 4.45 (a short nap - was he overtired perhaps?  He rarely will nap beyone 30 mins at this time of day)
E 5.15pm (pumpkin and rice cereal)
Bath
E 6.35 BF
S 6.45 (I put him down at 6.45pm - no fussing at all, I think he went straight to sleep)

Hope tonight is better   I'm hopeful since he went to bed so happy tonight.

[deckchariot]

YAY for a longer first nap!!!  That's great!!!  With the 2nd nap, if he woke happy, my guess is UT - if your toddler woke him, I'm guessing he would not have awoken happy.  He's not used to having such a long first nap, so he might have been ready for just a few more min of A time (though it looks like you did extend it longer than it usually is, so I wouldn't add too many more min).  It generally takes a few days for any changes in A time to really solidify into routine changes, so it's possible if you keep the same routine tomorrow, you will still get a longer 1st nap and a longer 2nd nap (as he begins to adjust to the  A time switch).  Let me know how the night goes.....

well done!!!

[Tobysmum]

Well after me thinking it was going to be a good night, last night was the worst ever - multiple night wakings again.  I am completely and utterly confused not to mention exhausted.

I posted my day yesterday and after that he woke up at 10.20pm so I fed him (was dreamfeed time and I didn't want to put him back to sleep then wake him up again before 11pm).  He took a good feed.

THEN... he woke up at 1.05am, 2.00am, 3.30am and 5.05am and then wouldn't go back to sleep however much we tried to settle him at which point I fed him and he took a very good feed then went back to sleep until just after 7.  I did pu/pd once at 1.05 and I think 2.00 and then patted his back and turned him on his side at 3.30am and 5.05am (he kept settling for a few minutes then waking up - so I fed him at 5.40am in the end).  As I said, I didn't feed him until 5.40am and I haven't fed in the night for a while.

I just don't know why.

Surely if he was hungry he wouldn't have gone back to sleep all those times?  I don't think he was OT as he had good naps yesterday I thought.  If he was in pain, surely he wouldn't have gone back to sleep either.  I really can't figure it out but I am obviously doing something wrong and I need to figure out what it is  quickly!  DH is totally exhausted and not very happy about the whole situation (he has a very stressful job and has to be at work by 7.30am.


Today hasn't been great  - he only napped for 1 hr this morning and then 45 mins at lunchtime.  I am supposed to be going to a playdate this afternoon with my toddler (as we have been staying at home I really need to get him out), and I think I'm going to have to cancel so I can try to get Gus to have a good nap - I can't see him napping at the playdate.

Please please help me.  My first baby was such a good sleeper (exclusively breastfed too) and I just don't know what I can do to improve things.  I am working so hard on getting him onto a routine but he's now sleeping MUCH WORSE than he was doing prior to having a routine.

Today has been as follows:

E 5.40am BF
Put him back in bed at 6.10am he went back to sleep
A 7.10ish (I didn't hear him wake)
E 8.00 Solids
Top up at 8.45 as he could have woken hungry during nap.
S 9.15
A 10.15 (woke happy)
E 11.30/12.00 BF - feed (wasn't hungry at 11.30 really)
S 12.15 (he was falling asleep, seemed very tired)
A 1.00  (woke happy - perhaps I should have tried extending A time but he was tired and he'd also only had 1 hr nap earlier)
E 2.00 (solids)
S 3.00 (for how long I don't know)
(it's now 3.55pm and he's still asleep)

Anyway, please please help me - as I said, something is obviously up but I can't figure out what.

I did read on one of the stickys that night wakings can sometimes be due to cumulative over tiredness and to put him to sleep early for a few nights.
Do you think this could be the problem? 

The thing is he's happy in the day and is generally a very laid back baby - rarely cries unless he's tired or overstimulated or hungry. 

I have posted on the night wakings board as it's obviously a night waking problem - but I'd be happy for any advice at all that I can get as I am just sooooooooooo tired and am trying to look after a 2.5 year old at the same time.

[deckchariot]

I'm so sorry you had a rough night.  I'm glad you've posted on the NWs board too - they may see something I don't over there!  Looking at your routine from today, I think you're right that his 2nd nap was short (45 min) because he was UT - looks like you gave him 2 hrs of A time (because he only slept 1 hr).  But I look at the previous routine, and he slept 1 hr 15 and you gave him 2 hr 25 min.  So I'm guessing you cut too much off that 2nd A time.  1 hr nap is pretty good - I probably wouldn't have cut much (if anything) out of his next A time.

Yes, OT can indeed be cummulative.  If you think you in the nasty OT cycle, I would put him to bed early (just 30 min or so) and see if that helps.  In terms of A time, I'd stick with the 2 hr 5 min first thing (that's what you've done the last 2 days, it looks like) and then if he naps at least an hour, I'd do between 2hr 15 and 2 hr 30 (just see how he's doing).  It can take several days for things to sort out once you start tweaking A time.

You're not doing anything wrong - you're trying to figure out what works best for your little guy at this time.  Unfortunately, they don't come with a manual, so sometimes that figuring out process is a bit rough.  You're doing a great job.  Hang in there!!!