RE: PM Nap Strike but not ready to drop it...

[BabyBsMommy]

DS is going to be three in January.  Naps have always been the bane to our existence with him!  Our newest issue has me completely baffled and DH and I can't seem to piece together a strategy that works.
He used to be a fantastic night sleeper, too, and since these nap issues have cropped up he is getting more and more OT and no matter if we try to put him to bed 1/2 hour-hour earlier when he doesn't nap (as we have always done) or at his regular time, he still doesn't even settle down then so lately he is asleep somewhere between 8:30-9:30 and his wake up time depends on how ot he is and how long he goofed around before bed, the later he is up, the earlier he wakes.  He used to sleep from 7:30-7:30, though.

So here is our nap issue.  He is spirited and VERY active.  As nap time approaches, he is yawning and rubbing his eyes.  On the days he doesn't nap, he is yawning, miserable, wound up and hyper with big dark circles so we know he needs that rest time still.  We settle him after lunch with about 15 min of a quiet tv show (as we've always done), go potty, read 2-3 stories and he gets into bed.  Up until 2 weeks ago, he would nap 4-5 out of 7 days but on the days he didn't nap, he'd be fairly quiet, stay in bed and play with his lovies.  Now, almost immediately he poops in his pull up and that starts everything (we have yet to get him to go in the potty after an initial great start of 4 times in a row).  We change him, then put him back to bed and always say the same thing, "It's time to start your rest now", tuck him back in and leave him.

He proceeds to continually come out of bed, jump off of his bed (we've had to strip his room of most of the furniture, knick knacks, night light, few stuffed animals and books because of this.).  He is such a busy kid that he CAN'T fall asleep if he doesn't stop moving but I don't know HOW to get him to stop. 
I'll admit that we are being somewhat inconsistent because nothing we try seems to work.
At night, we can do the whole supernanny-ish thing, where the first time is a loving tuck back into bed, the second a firm it's time to go to sleep and silence after that because he has to go to sleep for it at some point.  The problem with naptime is that we can't keep doing it until he goes to sleep because by 4pm he's not asleep and you can't keep going on forever when it's just a nap.  We have used a few other things at night, taking his lovies and Thomas blanket out until he can settle and then he gets them back, for example, but those don't work at naptime, either.  I've even tried laying down with him and holding him so he stays in bed, which makes him throw a fit for about 5 min, then he relaxes and goes to sleep but I have mixed feelings about doing that because although it works, I worry that he will come to rely on me laying with him to go to sleep and I don't want that, either.

So, I'm looking for advice on how to get him to stop moving long enough to relax and have a nap.  Do I give him a warning the first time I go in that the next time I'll have to lay down with him to help his body to settle down and then follow through despite the fit, hoping that by being consistent he'll realize he doesn't want me to do that and come to settle on his own?

Do we rig up some sort of timer on a light or soft music and tell him rest time is over and he can come out when the light goes on/or music goes off?
Do I put a timer on a light and let him look at books for 15 min and then say it's time to turn off the light and have a rest now?
ARGH!  I need to find something consistent and I have no idea what to do!
LMK if you need any other info, I feel like there is so much more to say but this post is already very long!
I'm starting to lose it between trying to get him to nap, dealing with him out of control from 4-bedtime (and beyond on the nights he can't settle for bed because he's so wound up), plus caring for my bf 10 month old on top of that while DH is out at work most of those evenings.  I've had a stretch of bedtimes lately where I spend 2 hours plus literally putting him back in bed 3 times a minute over and over while he screeches with glee because he is so wired.  I can't put him to bed early when I still have my little one to put to bed after because he runs around the house like a wild man and riles up the baby while I'm trying to bf him in his room and get him to bed.  Argh! You get the gist!

[becky1969]

Welcome! Sounds like our sons are very close in age -- mine will be 3 on Dec 28.

I'm wondering when you started PT?  It sounds to me that is part of the problem.  We had a bad week when we first started PT my son where he'd start to fall asleep, but feel the need to poo/pee and then would cry and need to either be taken to the potty or have his pullup/diaper changed.  It just took time for him to get used to the potty, plus I very clearly explained to him (several times) that it was OK for him to go potty in his diaper at sleep times because mommy wanted him to get good rest.   That helped, and he stopped getting insane at naps and bedtimes.

Besides that, I think your son is just EXTREMELY OT and that is making settling down almost impossible.  I absolutely wouldn't take lovies away in an attempt to help him settle.  Lovies are meant for cuddling and are important relaxation objects.  He's not trying to be disobedient; his body is simply too revved to sleep because he's tired.  My guess? Either the PT (developmental) or a growth spurt (physical) has caused him to be more tired than usual.  His nap probably needs to be moved 45-60 minutes earlier instead of just 30 minutes. 

Also, I'd probably try an extended wind down routine for awhile, to help him get over the OT phase.  IN other words, it's OK to take a little longer with him, just being quiet (no books etc.), rocking in a chair, or simply holding him and cuddling.  Helping him to calm down and get ready for sleep.  He definitely sounds like he's showing tired signs at nap (yawning, rubbing eyes) - and for a toddler to do that means you've WAY overshot his sleep window.  So, move nap up by an hour and see what happens.  give him some extra cuddles/quiet time in his room and see if that helps.  Let him have his lovies to snuggle and help him relax.  And explain to him it's OK to poo in his diaper while sleeping. 

I also have to wonder if he's saving that poo up for the pullup.  It sounds like pooing in the potty is a challenge for him right now.  I don't know if you're doing undies the rest of the day, and pullup only for sleep.  But if you are, it could be that he's saving up that poo for when that pullup comes on.  Having a poo can mess up ANYONE'S nap time! Thats for sure!    So, you might want to put the pullup on earlier in the routine, just until he's better at pooing in the potty.  ONe of the ways I got my son to poo in the potty (he'd cry and cry in terror when he felt a poo coming on!) was to pretend *I* had to make a poo.  I'd sit on the potty, make lots of noises as if I were going potty  and it kind of made him have to go too.  As soon as I saw he was starting to poo, I'd whisk him on the potty.  It only took 2 times for him to see that pooing was fun ont he potty because he got a sucker afterwards!    You can try the PT board too for some more pooing ideas.  Oneperson said they heard blowing bubbles while on the potty works because you can't hold in AND blow out at the same time.   

So, PT and OT are your too contributing factors.  Try putting down earlier to eliminate the OT problem, and try a few more tricks to eliminate the PT one including explaining to him that it's OK to poo in his pullup while he's sleeping.

[becky1969]

Typical routine would help immensely! I'll see if I can see any trouble spots!  Based on your sleep record, I have a feeling your kid is super sensitive to being OT.  I've got one like that myself, so might be able to help you thru.  Good luck!

[BabyBsMommy]

Okeedokee - Here's our typical routine....
Wake 7:30-8:00am (we will wake him up by 8am if he's still asleep)
Watch's a tv show for a half hour.
Has breakfast - he's a good eater btw
Dressed and brush teeth.
Free play time - on Wednesdays we go to a preschool time from 10:00-11:30 and on Thursdays to a Library activity from 10:30-11:00, if we don't have those or a playdate, he has free play until his little brother goes down for his nap and then I either take him outside to play or I spend a bit of one on one time with him doing a game, playdoh, just playing with his toys, etc.
Snack, 10:45am
Lunch, 12:30
Watch a video for 15 min or so after lunch
Nap time - we go upstairs at about 1:40 so he's in bed for 2.
Naptime when he sleeps is 2-4 but when he doesn't, I usually end everything by 3 or 3:30 depending on how calm he's been (I leave him in there longer if he is relatively quiet, take him out sooner if he's really wound up).
Snack after naptime and stories or another 15 min show.
Playtime - similar to the AM
5:30 - dinner
Bathtime depends on whether he's napped or not, 6:45 if he hasn't, 7:30 if he has.
Bedtime depends on the same, 7:30 with no nap, 8:00 with a nap.

I took stock a bit tonight and realizes the nights when DH is at work so I have to bath him together with his little brother and then he gets to sit and watch a video while I put the baby down before starting his bedtime, he goes to sleep better.  He gets pretty busy playing in the tub and I think that winds him up a bit so having the time to go back downstairs after his bath and sit quietly, even longer than the 15 min or so we spend with him with cuddles and stories in his room, seems to help the transition to bed even more.

Thanks for your insights on what might be going on.  Let me know what time you think I should try his naps.  We were aiming for 1:30 for a while but he is such a SLOW eater that lunchtime kept creeping into things so it's slowly moved closer to 2 again. 

As for the PT, we started that back in August.  He only had pee accidents frequently the first few days and within the first week he was down to almost none.  He has rarely had pee accidents since, mostly only if WE forget to take him to the potty and too much time goes by.  He is happy to pee when we are out and about or at other people's houses, too and can hold it for quite a while if we ever forget!  The first few times he pooped after we started PTing he did it in his undies and wasn't too happy about it.  Then he started to hold it a bit and it would come randomly at naptimes and in the morning when he was wearing a diaper or pull up.  He did his first one after not going for a while and was very upset because some fell on the floor.  A week or so later, he did three in one week and was very proud of himself but since then, nothing!  He LOVES chocolate chip cookies and they are a special treat for him so that's what we were using as a reward but he's not interested any more.  Naps have gone down the tubes, though, since he has started CONSISTENTLY pooping at the beginning of every  nap.  I am totally sure that he is holding it until he has a pull up or diaper on.  Any suggestions as to when in the routine he should get a pull up on?  I'm almost wondering if we should put it one right after lunch and let him watch his 15-20 min of a tv show with it on and see if he goes then?
Sorry, it's getting late so this is a post of some random thoughts, lol!

[becky1969]

Well, I think I'd bring nap ealier -- in bed by 1 (so 5 hours of A time max).  Give that a try for a few days.  I also like the idea of putting a pullup on BEFORE lunch; then the eating/watching video may be enough to, um, get things moving.    You might also try making that snack smaller and then moving lunch earlier (say by noon) so that you get a whole hour between eating and napping when the poop might come on out.  The nice thing about putting on the pullup sooner/having lunch sooner is that not only is there a chance he'll poop BEFORE nap, but you might catch him and get him on the potty right away! You might also try changing up the reward. It could be he's bored with the cookies (even tho he loves them).  Maybe make a special shopping trip.  We had tons of trouble with my son, and so we went out and bought a package of 4 really cool trucks (they were probably $1/each  ).  He knew he'd get one each time he pooped in the potty.  He was still super anxious about doing it, but I kept reminding him about the trucks and as soon as I saw him making a poop, rushed him to the potty.  I'm no expert on PT by any means, tho! We just finished PT about a month ago and so you can also go the PT board and see if they have any ideas about getting him to not poo at nap time.

Bedtime should also be earlier.  On no nap days, I'd probably shoot for 6:30!  Esp. since he's in an OT cycle.  One day of skipping naps is one thing, but you've got a pattern here that is making him progressively more tired.  Think about it: on nap days, he's only having 4 hours of A time before bedtime! Sounds like he was falling alseep just fine like that.  So, on no nap days he's going to bed way too late.  If you move naptime up to 1 (and it works!) that would mean a 3 pm wake up, so 7 pm bedtime at the latest.

It also sounds like extending wind down is a good idea.  As they get older, transitions get harder because they are more involved with what they are doing.  You may want to try more warnings too ("10 minutes until nap time! 5 minutes until nap time! 3 minutes until nap time! 1 minute until nap time! Last time -- and then upstairs for nap!).  Warnings work great at this age.  They might protest at the first warning, but being given SEVERAL warnings helps them realize what's coming next, and then it isn't such a battle.  We always give my son the warning "Last time" too, even after the 1 minute warning.  That lets him have 1more jump off the couch, one more block to put on his tower, 1 more race around the room. Whatever.  It kind ofmakes him feel like HE'S in charge.  Just might be something you can try.  But you have to be consistent with the warnings -- in other words, you can't warn him one day and then the next day rush him off to nap just because YOU forgot to warn.  But don't worry: they can't tell time yet, so a "minute" can be 15 seconds.  What do they know? 


Once he's napping more consistently and falls asleep more easily at bedtime than I think nap time will move back to 1:30/2 and bedtime back to around 7:30/8.  But until then, you're going to have to put him down earlier to fight this OT monster.

[BabyBsMommy]

That all sounds like fantastic advice!
Yesterday, put him down for 1:15pm for naptime.  He was pretty cranky right from when he got up in the morning (ew of 7am which is about 45 min early for him).  He went down very easily.  I tried the relaxed wind down in the chair with him after his two stories but he was silly and wiggling and moving around so much thinking it was a game.  I stuck with it for 5 min or so but I was doing lots of talking trying to calm him so I just put him in.  He was in bed for 1:15 and he was asleep when I peeked in at him at 1:30.

Last night he was up late for Hallowe'en and so he slept in until 8:30 (we let him - up late meant he was asleep at 9 but we also let him nap until he woke up - 1:30-3:30).  Stupidly, I got excited about the time change and decided to still put him down in bed for 2pm and nap was a bust!  TOTALLY my fault.  SO we'll do an earlier bedtime of 6:30 tonight and see what happens (just hope he isn't up super early with the time change tomorrow, groan!

With the time change, I'm going to try to have him in bed for his nap around 12-12:30 tomorrow, depending on when he wakes up and how bedtime goes tonight.  Hopefully it will work since DH is working tomorrow until 3:15 and I'm hosting a shower for my sil from 2-4!  (If he is asleep, he sleeps through ANYTHING!)  I think in general, I'll give it a good week of doing nap at 5 hours of A time from whenever he wakes up until the whole time change thing clicks and we get a consistent wake up time again...

I'll do my best to get him to bed earlier, especially when he doesn't nap.  The issue I'm having is that DH is away at night for bedtimes with his shift work part of the week and when I put DS in bed before the baby, he totally takes advantage knowing that I am putting the baby to bed and comes out of bed, running around everywhere, slamming the baby's door while I'm trying to bf him, etc. etc. so he ends up more wound up AND I have the baby (almost 10 months) all wound up, too.  Even though he is up a bit later when I put the baby down first, he settles down much more quickly......  I am constantly torn about what to do about this one!

As for the PTing, we'll try bumping things up even more and see what happens.  Today, he was tooting up a storm before his nap and asked to try on the potty but then didn't even try once he was there (despite me "trying" too!).  Five min after being back in his room, he pooped!)  I should also mention that he napped yesterday AND didn't do a poop beforehand so I still think the poop is the main culprit and the OT is a byproduct of the evil nap bombs!  Like the idea of a toy, maybe we'll do that.  We've already gone from smarties for pees to a whole mini box of them for a poop (worked first two times) then the cookie which got the second two times!  Ugh!

Gotta go as my very ot guy is loosing it as I type so I need to settle him down so I can at least keep the baby napping his pm nap a bit longer!

[becky1969]

Hmmm. It *is* very hard with 2! What I would consider doing is putting baby in crib (not necessarily for sleep, but just to hang out until you get DS #1 to bed).  The advantage of this is DS #1 things DS#2 is in bed for the night, so will settle easier.  You'll have DS #2 out of the way, so DS #1 gets undivided attention.  I don't know fi your DS#2 is the type of baby who is content to just hang out in crib or not!  Of course, if they share a room this won't work.  But if they have separate rooms, it might! You might use a mobile or some other toy like FP Aquarium to keep DS#2 entertained and happy while dealing with #1.

Just a thought! And the 2 and more board might be more help on how to get an OT little dude to bed when he doesn't like waiting for brother! 

[Serenity]

It was very interesting to read this as it's the same problem with my ds (22 months almost).  We moved him to a big boy bed, but he didn't want to sleep during naps.  We also did the suppernanny type route and it worked great for bedtime, but at naptime it can go on so long that we don't know what to do, because as you said, it can't go all day.  I will say that it did help to extend his wind down time and put him down for a later nap.  We have lunch at 12, and by 12:45 start wind down.  we read a book in his rocking chair, then when that's over put on his lullaby cd and rock for up to 10 minutes or until he starts getting sleepy.  I keep my eyes closed and don't talk to him or move much other than rocking.  If it's been several minutes and he is obviously tired but still having a hard time settling, then I'll stroke his face.  It's still not perfect, but it has helped.  Some days he just won't settle and other days he'll nap for only about 45 minutes (2 hrs used to be his norm.)

[BabyBsMommy]

The crib idea is a great one but that's what I do with the baby as it is...   then after DS is in bed, I go get the baby from the crib and sit in the nursery to feed him.  That's when the silliness with DS starts.
We're finding he's waaaay too overtired right now to make it to his regular naptime so we've moved it a bit earlier.  Working on a longer wind down but he gets really silly in the rocking chair after being nice and calm for stories.  I like the idea of closing my eyes and not saying anything or moving other than the rocking.  Maybe I'll try that tomorrow.  At bedtime, all of this works fine, it's just naptime that he is so wound up!

[Serenity]

Hi, I just wanted to let you know how I'm getting along with my wind down for DS as it's still pretty new.  DH tried the story and rocking, and it just didn't work for DS.  But today when I resumed the role, DS was asleep before I ever even finished the story!  He then slept for 1.5 hours.  The eyes closed, quiet, and still thing I've been doing for a long time.  I found that once he realizes that he's not going to get my attention, he calms down some and relaxes, plus not having to see him looking all around the room keeps me calm.  So it sounds like you have the baby in with you as you try to get DS asleep?  Is there a way that you could get the baby entertained with something else in the other room for a few minutes maybe?  I'm not sure about that aspect, but am very nervous about it as I'll be having a baby in Feb.  I guess that's why I feel such pressure to get naps right now.

[becky1969]

Another idea is to wind down baby and put to bed before DS' bedtime routine.  As a BW follower, baby shouldn't be asleep when put in crib anyway.  So, baby might have longer to lay around in crib before falling asleep, but so what!  Perhaps you could nurse/feed baby while reading to DS#1 as part of #1s routine, then gently put DS#2 in his room (finishing his wind down, whatever it is) and then going back and finishing DS#1s routine.  It would probably mean starting DS#1s routine 15-20 minutes earlier than normal, but that actually might be good! And perhaps you could incorporate DS#1 in #2s wind down? Like have him get the clean diaper out, prepare the sleep sack/swaddle, etc.  Make him feel important, plus it's a calm, sleepy activity.  You could even say to him that he's such a big boy now that you thought he was ready to become your helper with DS#2s bedtime routine.  You could also tell him that since he's such a good sleeper, you thought it would help DS#2 to learn from big brother. 

[BabyBsMommy]

Serenity - honestly, how long did it take you to get to the point where he is calming down when you are sitting with him in the chair?  How long did you sit there and wait for him to settle when you first started?
My 10 month old isn't in the room when I'm putting DS through his nap routine.  He is in his playpen in another room and is very good about it.

Becky - I can totally see your point about putting the baby to bed first but he is on a really solid routine that flipped over really well from the time change where he naps until 4:30 so it's kind of hard to bf him at 4:30 and then expect him to bf again and be put to bed by 6:30 with a solid's feed in between, kwim?  I tried putting him down a few times earlier but then had nwings because he wasn't hungry for his milk before bed.  I think I'm going to stick with letting DS watch a quiet DVD on the portable in his room while I put DS to bed for his normal bedtime at 7:30 so at the very latest once he has his stories and wind down he'll be in bed by 7:45.  On the nights that DH is here, he can go to bed earlier.  I like the idea of him helping with the baby's routine, though and I think I'll try to get him to do that.  Oh, and the two boys bath together so that DS is totally ready for bed when he watches the dvd.  I know some people don't do tv before rests but I do because it is one of the few things that gets his body to stay still and therefore relax!

[Serenity]

I don't know really.  We had always rocked him before, so that kind of thing he was used to before.  We had stopped rocking him though as it was hard for me to do so in pregnancy, but is now the only thing that works.  When we first started he would want to sit straight up in my lap and poke at the book and talk about it.  I make him lay his head on my chest and I read quietly to him in a really soothing tone.  Anytime he sits up and starts talking I gently say, "shhh" and lay him back on my chest.  If he gets involved in the book he gets too riled up.  By the time the book is over, he is usually tired enough that a few minutes of rocking with the lullaby cd just finish the job.  But I also have a certain set of books that we read only at naptime/bedtime, and then others that we read more playfully during awake time.  I use the Berenstain Bears books at nap/bedtime.  They are long enough that if he's quiet the whole time, he's relaxed enough to be ready for sleep, and there are no characters he just loves (Elmo, kitties and puppies, those would rile him up too much).  I don't know how much of this lets him know it's sleepytime, but we also have a routine of him picking up his toys and putting them away, and brushing his teeth, then diaper change, then story and rocking and sleep.