5 month old not sleeping through night and 45 min. napper

[LadyValerie]

I have a 5 month old who wakes between 1 and 3 times per night and only naps for 45 minutes at a time (I can get him to go back to sleep if I give him his paci, but he didn't use it to fall asleep in the first place).
I would say he has 3 naps a day possibly 4 but one would have been a catnap. I don't think I have put him in his crib while he has been wide awake in a while. I guess last time I did he cried. Usually I try to get him in there drowsy. He will fall asleep on his own either nursing (but I try to wake him), in the car, sometimes on the shoulder, etc. and is generally easy to put to sleep. But he wakes. I am getting tired of being tired and grumpy because of it. Please help. I know he can go 4-5 hours without a feed. He just doesn't want to at night.
I should add that he doesn't seem to be showing many sleep cues. I have not seen him yawn or rub eyes in months! I usually try for a two hour awake period at this age. Lately has been so busy that I don't have a regular schedule. When he eats, I try not to let him fall asleep or if he does, I rouse him a bit. Sometimes he will cry for a minute before re-settling. He doesn't take long to BF so I have never been sure how much milk he is getting. He is a rolly-polly though, fat cheeks and legs so I've never felt like he was starving! 
He will and does take a paci sometimes but I try not to let him sleep with it because I don't want it to be a prop. I am confused as to what I have done wrong to get my little baby not sleeping so well. I am getting frustrated because what I thought I was supposed to do isn't working. I have not used CIO by the book. I have let him cry for about 5-10 min to see if he would settle, but lately have had to go in and feed him to get him quiet. Tonight I gave him his paci.
I have a toddler who sleeps quite well and it's coming up on Thanksgiving here in the States, so I am hoping to get him sleeping better before my family arrives. At that point, he will have to sleep in his own bed in our room for a few nights. I hope that won't disrupt any progress we're able to make.
I have tried to find basic instruction on this website but at 3AM have not had much luck pinning it down. I plan to get the book "Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems" at the library tomorrow.

[babybarr]

You could do with posting your approx routine.
Does he only go to sleep with one of the things you mention or can he fall asleep independently in his bed?
How many naps does he have - if they are 45 mins long?
Hopefully someone here will be able to help!
Lots of great girls here.
Hang on in there.
xxx

[LadyValerie]

I have added this to my original post to fill in some details.
I would say he has 3 naps a day possibly 4 but one would have been a catnap. I don't think I have put him in his crib while he has been wide awake in a while. I guess last time I did he cried. Usually I try to get him in there drowsy. 

[babybarr]

Firstly I wanted to say also you are doing a great job and you WILL get things sorted.  I am no expert but I'll try to help and there are some excellent girls here who'll help to as I said previously.
Ok, so he has 3 naps of 45mins and a shorter one? and usually you try one of the above to get him drowsy?
He needs about 4 - 4.5hrs sleep a day.  He is probably OT(overtired) which won't help with the short naps and nightwakings. 
Definitely get the book, you can try doing pick up put down - there is some advice on this site for that.  First though I think you need to establish what it is you do to get him drowsy - is it feeding?
Have you tried giving him his paci to extend his naps?  Have you tried giving it to him to get him to sleep in the first place as opposed to feeding?  Maybe we can use the paci to help get some issues sorted then we can wean the paci later?  How does that sound?

[LadyValerie]

I suppose I either rock  or nurse to get him to the sleepy stage. I have used the paci to extend the early afternoon nap. But I am afraid of using it as a sleep aid because weaning from it might be difficult. I popped his paci in last night because I was so tired but he only slept 2 hours with it. Is it harder to sleep train without the paci or wean him from using the pacifier? Besides, I think sometimes that using the pacifier makes him a lazy nurser. I seem to get sore again after he uses it more frequently. (I've always had issues with BF)
He is sleeping now. Hubby brought him into bed with me this  morning and I nursed for a couple of minutes. I was kindof drowsy myself, but I think he dozed off and then when I broke suction, he woke up. He looked around a while and smiled. I left him on the bed with pillows blocking is way off and he fell asleep. I know he can. He just won't in the middle of the night.
Will try to read the book this weekend and see how things improve. Advise from seasoned BWs much appreciated. I feel like I only "learned" some of the lessons the first go round with my 3 year old and seem to have forgotten a LOT!  I put her in bed, close the door and don't see her until the morning. Not that she's sleeping, but she entertains herself until she falls asleep and again when she wakes.

[worriermum]

Hiya, my lo is 5.5mths & we had a lot of trouble with naps, he still puts on a great performance most naps. We found a lot came down to his temperment as well - he is stubborn (like his parents lol). The biggest thing which i know is hard is deciding a plan & being consistent with it. We fell into the trap of trying a certain way for a day or so then giving up, probably just as he was going to "give in". Tracy says start as you wish to continue, so bear in mind that using a paci or other props now might lead to prop issues later on (in saying that if all else fails & you both need sleep then do what you need to do for that nap). But it confuses them if one nap they get rocked to sleep/drowsy, the next fed, the next its paci.
We tried all the shh/pat & other "kinder" approaches, we found that he actually would cry up to 10min before falling asleep & that this is ok, its not CIO its them actually settling &/or protesting. We then had to do controlled crying to extend naps, as we were feeding every 2.5hrs because he would wake early & we were so scared of OT, so on suggestion of someone experienced in babies & based on what we had tried & what our lo was doing - we did controlled crying, so if he woke early we would leave him until he cried then let him cry then straight in to reassure him, then leave room, wait 10min, then go in & reassure then leave, we did this until he either went to sleep or it was 3hrs since he last ate. To be fair the 1st time was hard, I had a friend with me which helped. We soon found that for our lo, going in to him gave him a false idea that we would get him up & so he would scream/cry even harder when we left the room, so we pushed out the time of when we'd go in to him. eventually (which was only days) he slept longer, mainly as we were able to push out the times between feeds, he went from having 165mls every 2.5hrs to 220mls every 3hrs. so he was in a vicious cycle of snack feeding & catnapping.
anyway you may not have had time to read all of this, but I definitely know how you feel! we still have those days (after having them for 2.5mths).
Maybe post a days routine so that one of us might be able to see whats happening, also maybe post what you do when he either doesnt settle or wakes early.
lik pp you are doing a great job!!!!

[babybarr]

As pp said you need to decide your routine for naps.  You probably have one for bedtime do you?  I really found that a good time to wind down before naps helps.
I would say that he is OT (overtired) not having enough sleep during the day can lead to bad nights - lots of wakings.
First things first lets try and get some more sleep in during the day - what happens if you put him to bed - (when he's tired (probablyabout 2hrs after getting up) look for subtle signs yawn, rubbing eyes are my DS's) - with the paci and just pat lightly - see what happens.
If he wakes after 45mins you need to try and extend the nap to 1.5hr put the paci back in and pat - will he fall asleep?
TRY!! see what happens - do this every nap and persevere - we can wean paci later. 
With DS I use white noise at the 45 min mark - when he wakes I don't let him see me (which means crawling across the floor!!!) - I turn on white noise loud enough for him to hear then he listens to that and stops crying and goes back to sleep.  You could try that.

I think if we can get him to sleep better during day then maybe he'll be better at night - this is definitely true for DS.

xx

[LadyValerie]

Ok, so I got the book this weekend. I know Tracy said take two days to observe, but I slowly started implementing, too. I think he is an angelic textbook baby and pretty easy going. He just needs to learn the right things and it's sometimes hard to know what will work.
I am a little confused about "mantra" crying. I think most of his crying at bedtimes is mantra crying. It's not escelating, it's a steady pitch, long exhale, inhale, repeat. He only sometimes has tears and rarely has ever had the "heart sluffs" Do we go in if it is mantra crying?
Honestly, he used to put himself to sleep after about 3 minutes of protesting, but that was before we took a trip and stayed in a strange house, etc.
So today he woke up at 7 and didn't make it until 9 for his nap. I do believe he is OT. So his nap was all messed up, but then I fed him and then when he was tired I put him down. PU/PD for a bit -- he was obviously tired. Picking him up, he could barely keep his eyes open, so it didn't take very long. He slept 2.25 hours. I went in at 30-45 minutes and put my hand on him to "partial wake" him so that he could go back to sleeping and it worked.
Tonight, I put him to bed (late, 'cause we were out later than I thought) and he did what I think are the mantra crys. I gave him his paci but when I dream feed him I will probably not put the paci back in.
Trying to remember last night, I think he woke up at 1AM and I probably put the paci in him. I'm sure I didn't feed him. I'm tired and have been sick the past 2 days so I can't really remember!    But he was grumpy yesterday and is much happer today. So maybe we have begun to fix his issues. If I can get him to nap during the day and give him is dreamfeed maybe he will sleep better during the night.
Thanks everybody.

[babybarr]

Well done you!  It sounds like you have already made progress a 2.25hr nap is excellent.  I do really think if you can get him to sleep better for naps the nights will get better too.
Try and rest sorry you have been poorly.  Have you got people around you who can help?

With regard to the mantra cry I find it difficult to know with DS.  Sometimes I go in and that disturbs him and then other times I don't and it escalates!!  I think stop and listen first - hopefully soon you'll be able to tell the difference.
xx

[snc]

I could have written your message about my own 5 mo last week. I can totally sympathise with how tired you are!
I also borrowed the BW book from the library but four weeks ago so I am slightly ahead of you. It sounds as though you have made amazing progress in just a couple of days! well done - a 2.5 hour sleep - wow!
I am certainly no expert, very much a beginner, but the book gives lots of very positive help. I cleared my diary for two weeks and spent up to 5 hours a day in his darkened bedroom trying to get him to sleep in his cot for naps. Through this I've learnt to spot his sutble sleep cues. I found that whilst daytime naps got better, night times got worse (sorry to suggest it may not be all good news!) I've now started to get tough - and it's not easy, but 7 wakenings a night have to stop!! I realise that my son doesn't like PU/PD and so I have to just leave him in his cot, and he cries. But I stay with him in the room whilst he complains. It took two hours the other night, but eventually, he settled himself. At times I sang to him or stroked his hand - more to give me comfort than him probably! Interestingly, he found a dummy (paci) in his bed and put it in himself so I now leave three there for him to find if he choooses.
Good luck!

[babybarr]

Well done SNC for your patience and dedication.  I really hope the NWs get better soon.


Ladyvalerie how is it going?

[LadyValerie]

Oh, baby has not improved at night. Today was Thanksgiving and I was too busy to devote enough time to lengthening his naps so I think he was OT again at bedtime. Strangely he didn't want the paci to stay in at naps so that didn't work for lengthening them. I just let him get up and would let him take another nap when he needed one. He probably took 3 today of 45 min each. Tonight he woke up after a while and I fed him at the wrong time. I think it was midnight -- a whole 1-2 hours later than his dreamfeed should have been.
Sometimes it seems like his naps are easier for him to settle the first time, mantra crying a bit. But when he wakes up after the 45min mark he doesn't resettle on his own. He doesn't want to settle at all. He gets really mad with PUPD sometimes, too and I'm not sure what to do about that. I know Tracy said not to fight a child arching his back, etc. He doesn't do that, but he kindof kicks his legs . For some reason sometimes the covering of his eyes with my hand on his tummy has a strangely calming effect. But sometimes I can't ever seem to remove my hand without breaking the calm. Yesterday he was really really mad.
I backslid tonight since we were so busy and had guests and let him go to sleep with his paci. He did take it and woke up at the midnight mark when I fed him and put him back to sleep with it again. I don't know how I am ever going to do this. I was hoping to have the sleeping fixed before my sister and parents came this weekend. But now I see I either have to try to do it with them here or wait until they leave. Any ideas on how to make this weekend any easier?
I feel like 4hour EASY works and doesn't work at the same time. He is not getting hungry and crying over that ever during the day. He is wanting to sleep at the "scheduled" times if not before, but still doesn't stay asleep. At night he doesn't sleep through. His initial going to bed has gotten better but the staying asleep isn't.
I was trying to be consistent until backsliding today, but it seemed like I did PUPD for at least 20 minutes in the middle of the night and it wasn't just crying but he was getting MAD and I wasn't sure what to do. When you pick up a crying child how long do you hold them after they stop crying? He would sometimes not stop crying for a minute or more. Tracy says put them down the minute they stop crying but does that mean right that second, or not longer than a minute? The goal is to not let them fall asleep while being held, right? So would that mean that as long as they are awake, you could hold them a few (up to a minute) seconds after they stop crying? I am thinking that I should start up again with this tonight if he wakes up since there has only been some deviation. If I stop now we'll have to start completely over -- he may retain some of the progress we've already made if I go forward.
Sorry for the rambling post. Any other suggestions? THANKS!

[babybarr]

When he wakes from his 45mins naps is he crying or happy? - I'm guessing he's not happy?

I think if it's going to stress you trying to do it while your mum and sister are around then leave it and make a determined start next wekk.  Actually make a decision though so you're not doing this then that then the other IYSWIM?

Next week if you can stay at home so you can literally devote the time to sorting things out - it is hard but worth it. 

A couple of other things... what time does he go to bed?  Have you tried an earlier bedtime, and have you tried without the DF before?  I know DS didn't go much on the DF and it disturbed him but he is FF.

I think if PUPD is the method you're going to use there's a thread on the site about it it may be worth looking at it.  I think you are literally meant to put them down the second they stop crying - I think holding them too long causes problems. Have you got the BW sloves all your probs book?  that has a massive section on PUPD

Let us know what you decide about the weekend so we know whether to start afresh next week.

HUGS to you xx

[LadyValerie]

When he wakes he is crying, but not violently. It seems to start out as mantra maybe but escelates or doesn't stop after a couple of minutes. Or if I go in he seems happy to see me and ready to go.
I'm sorry but I couldn't figure out "IYSWIM"
How long can he be expected to sleep at night without a DF? I have been putting him down closer to 8PM I think with a DF near 11.
I did pick up the Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems. But the actual length of time to hold them was unclear. Honestly I felt like sometimes it doesn't seem to work except to tire the child and he just can't continue to fight sleep.

[babybarr]

Sorry - IYSWIM = if you see what I mean!!

My 5mth old sleeps from 7pm - 6ish without DF and then I leave him at 6am - he isn't crying and sometimes he goes back to sleep but I do believe I am the exception as he has been doing this since 10.5 weeks!!

I know that PU/PD doesn't seem to work with DS as as soon as he's picked up he's ready to play.  How do you extend naps if he wakes early?