Day 2 of 4 hour EASY - in need of encouragement

[spanna]

Hi there,
I'm new here and have a 4 month old daughter, Eva.
Some background.....For a while there she sleeping for 9 hrs straight from 6/6.30 with one wake up feed about 3/4am. But then at around 13 weeks she stopped this and started to wake at about 10.30, (she had never done this before since we never did a dream feed at the start), 2.30 sometimes 4 and 5.30. She would take absolutely ages to settle and then once she took 3 hours to settle and that was it... I was getting to the end of my tether with sleep dep! Shortly after we went to NZ to meet the family.On holiday and when we returned she was easy to resettled but we have always had to use a bottle in the night.

As of last week(Tues) I taught her to self-settle which she was doing REALLY well at , and though the nights didn't change we felt we had achieved a massive step.. ... and hoped that the nights would improve in time! Then yesterday after MORE reading I decided to start her on the 4 hour EASY.

I had figured out that she was waking habitually at night so had started to reduce her night feeds and encouraged her back to the cot awake to settle from awake......which seems to work ok! I was going to set my alarm for one hour earlier than her normal wake time last night, but felt that starting a routine and doing this in the same 24 hrs may be pointless, as I wanted to see how she reacted. Last night she woke at 2.40am and 4.40 then 5.20(resettled quickly) then 6.40. Instead her normal 1.30 and 4am.......

I also realised she had become a snacker. I think I caused this by using 120ml formula sachets when out and about which discouraged her from taking more when at home. I think putting her onto the routine though, even though we only started yesterday seems to have fixed this. Eva's feeds are gradually increasing already! partly as she now has specific feed times and also as I keep her on my lap and quietly read a book or chat to her, then come back to the bottle instead of letting her play and come back say 1/2 hour later! Also no more sachets.......

Yesterday went well with the exception of a couple of hiccups when I was trying to get her to sleep longer and using the PU/PD technique,(because she wouldn't respond to the sh-sh pat). After the most screaming she has ever done in her little life and 25 mins later, she eventually settled back down for about an hour each time.
She has continued in the same vain today and baulked at the idea of being resettled. Am I doing something wrong!? Should I even be trying the PU/ PD and resettling her when she has only slept for one sleep cycle?

Gee I thought teaching her how to sleep was tough but this was much harder.......... really pulled on my heart strings! I'm feeling very emotional as a result

So now I feel I have gone backwards with the settling!

Today has been harder in that we had to go out and do errands so she has been thrown a little, (fell asleep in the car for 25 mins and then I transferred her to the cot where she slept for 15 mins, then woke did another 15mins, woke and another 10mins,) but right now she seems to be coping ok and I plan to let her have her catnap earlier today to allow for this, since I figure she'll be tired sooner.

Can anyone give me any advice/light at the end of the tunnel?

My ultimate goal is to get her to sleep thru the night.......wouldn't that be nice, but right now I'd be happy with one wake up call

Her new routine is basically along the lines of the 4 hour EASY give or take a few mins 

Any feedback/words of encouragement would be very welcome at the mo!

[* Paula *]

Hugs, sorry you are having a rough time.

Can you keep track of a specific day and post it here for us to have a look at?

E
A - How long
S - How long and including her wind down routine.

Have you established a wind down routine?

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64277.0

Does your lo have any props i.e. pacci?

[spanna]

Hi Paula,
I have been good at keeping a track and writing it all down.(The sleep times include settling.)

Yesterday was like this.........
E 6.50, (120mls)
A 7.15
S 08.50, (tho I think a little overtired)
   awake 09.35
   resettled S 09.50
   awake 10.00
   resettled w PUPD 10.25
E 11.20, (160mls)
A 11.40 had to go out to appointment
S 13.45 in car
   home by 14.15 resettled in cot form awake 14.25
   awake 14.45 used PUPD
   sleep till 14.55, (ha! massive sleep)
E 15.00 awake and feed, (170mls)
A 15.20
S 16.10 very tired and cranky from missing out on sleep
E  Awake 17.00
A  17.00-18.00, again still cranky/tired
    18.00- early bath, massage
    18.30 stories and bottle, (155mls)
S  18.50 bed settled self
E  11.00, DF(180mls never before!)(needed to rouse, norm wakes up independently)
E   01.30 resettled w shsh pat
E   03.00 attempted to resettle w shsh pat but ended up giving 60mls and then back to cot awake resettled w shsh
    pat

This was yesterday who knows what today will bring???, (she's just waking from a one cycle sleep now!and I'm not game to PUPD today very distressing yesterday!)

She does have a wind down routine.....
Always take to her room when shows tired signs..........blinds closed ,room dark.....leave hall door ajar so a little background noise
Pop her into her grobag........ Cuddle and back patting, low volume re-assurance, first eye rub/thumb suck/nestled into me, into cot.........swaddle from chest down arms free, a little chest patting, until showing settling signs (usu thumb sucking at the mo thou has just discovered her pacifier, "Mr. Snuggles" which she alternates between thumb gettng a bit sore). ..... remove my hand gradually when she starts to go off, sit for a few moments then quietly leave the room, (whether awake or not).  I think the 4 S's are there but let me kow if somethings missing

The prop is something she chose to pick up he has always slept next to her in the cot thou she never paid him any attention until this week


Incidentally she settled back to sleep again just now for about 15 mns and is now awake again.......... and starting to grumble.........
thanks for your help with this I REALLY appreciate it

[* Paula *]

Mr Snuggles is not a prop, sounds like she has chosen her lovey.  A lovey is fantastic as it is a comfort item that they use to soothe themselves when they are upset or get ready to go to sleep.  Both my DS and DD have a blanket that they call bobo which is their lovey.  My DS is 3 and he still sleeps with his, and always has it when he is not well.

If you know where Mr Snuggles was bought try to get another one, as he will get a lot of wear and tear and you can alternate one while the other one is in the wash.

The first A time is generally a bit shorter than the rest of the A time as their first nap is an extension of their night time sleep.  Perhaps aim for about 1.75 hours for the first A time and see if this helps.

Have you tried staying in your lo's room during her sleep cycles to see what she actually does?  It could be that she is not getting past the jolts, and this is why she is waking and needing to be re-settled, she is not getting into a deeper sleep.  When you stay in her room you can see when she starts to stirr, and add a little pressure to her and pat / shhh her into the next stage of sleep.  This will help her transition into the deeper sleep.  Once she gets into a deep sleep she will be a lot more rested.

[spanna]

Hey paula,
thank you for that..........Good to hear about the existence of a "lovey", and yes I was palnnng to get an identical one..... but was a little concerned that she might suffocate on him as he has a silky side and likes to throw him over her face......

I agree, I thik her first A time was too long and I started to tune into her more and not the clock and that same night I decided that the next day I would be more observant and it worked... the lo slept for 2 hours!!!
So much has happened actually..
last night she  was  given her DF at 11pm adn only woke at 2.40am, I tried resettling twice but she woke after only a few mins, I evenyually gave her 60mls at 3.20am and she went off again until 6.40am !!!!!!! yay.,(just wish i'd given her the milk sooner....DO you thnkI should be offering a full feed at this time as is  about 4 hours after her last?

ANother curve ball today thou..... Eva has been teething and not coped well since about midday...so who knows what tonight will bring.She has fussed over feed and needed two top up aof 60mls at 12.50pm and 5pm. bathed at 5.30 then out like a light at 6.30 after the usu routine

I like the idea about sitting in Eva's room whilst she sleeps. I think I'll try that this week.......... i guess once she has had the reassurance part way thru she'll get used to doing this alone...right???
thanks again

[* Paula *]

That is fantastic news about your lo's 2 hour nap.  Sounds like you are reading her cues really well 

My DS used to do exactly the same thing with his lovey.  I think it was his way of comforting himself.  I used to freak, but if I moved it before he was asleep he would lose it and would be hard to settle.  I started staying upstairs when he went down for a nap / bedtime, and would listen outside his room, as soon as he was asleep I would move it to the side of his face so that he could still feel it but was not covering him.  He soon stopped putting it on his face.

If it has been 4 hours after the last feed and she won't re-settle after a few minutes, I would offer a feed.  I would keep an eye on the time though and make sure that she is not waking at the same time in the night, cause then that could be more out of habit than hunger.

Keep us posted on how you get on.

[spanna]

Hi again Paula, thought I'd update you...

Eva is down to one waking at night,!!!!!!!!!!(hope I'm not speaking too soon!), around 02.30, she called out last night about 4am but that was it, then slept to 6am. I'm a little concerned as her morning waking is getting earlier and her DF earlier too
Last night I gave her about 50mls water in the night to discourage the waking, (on the advice of my child health nurse), had the same effect as giving her a small amount of milk. She went back inot her cot awake adn then settled V quickly from there.I don't think it's neccessarily the liquid she wants but the sucking???, so we'll see what happens tonight! i'm prepared to go big time on shpat in the ngiht if I have to or wake up one hour before usu waking time What do you think would be best?

She had slept for Australia today   ??growth spurt!
awake 06.00
feed 06.40-07.10
A
sleep 7.30 -8.30
woke and changed and dressed 08.40 tured signs straight back to WD and then....
Sleep 08.40-10.05
Feed 10.45-011.10
A
sleep11.30-12.20, (had to be woken, Mum's gp at my place waiting to do Secret Santa!)
A12.15-13.20
S14.00-14.45
Feed 14.55
A15.20
S16.50-17.30
A 17.30
E 60mls
A 18.10 bath
E 18.30, (160mls)
S bed 18.50 asleep19.10

Weird day of huge amounts of sleep...will be interetsed to see what happens tonight!!!!!!

[* Paula *]

Great news on her sleep.  Sounds like she is hitting her 4 month growth spurt. 

If she does wake in the night during this growth spurt I would feed her as she will probably be hungry.

Keep us posted on how the night goes.

[spanna]

Hey paula, Quick update........
last night Eva woke briefly at 4.20am  didn't want food, (hasn't for the last few nights actually!), settled her back briefly, left, went in once more a few mins later then off to sleep. I did hear her dreaming, but that's cause I'm suck a light sleeper....
This basiclally means she slept 6 hours straight and  i can't recall her doing that since around 13 weeks! yay for BW's everywhere ad all thier wonderful knowledge!

[* Paula *]

That is fantastic news, I am so pleased that things are going well for you.  Keep it up.

[DebMcGee]

Hi
I think that if you upped the feeds during the day, it would help her with her sleeping. If she doesn't want any more milk after less than 180mls, give her a break for 30mins and offer her the rest of the bottle to see if she takes it. If you can, try to extend the time between the snacking by small increments - say 10-15mins a time until you get her to onto 4hrs betweena full 6-8oz feed. It will take a couple of weeks but she'll adapt.

The other thing it could be is a growth spurt which is causing her to be unsettled. Teething also gets in the way of feeds and sleeps so don't lose heart. Do your best and stick at it. She may not always fit into the routine but giving her structure will make her feel secure in the long run. We all have bad days and sometimes you have to take your cues from her. If she's not showing signs of wanting to nap, then don't whisk her straight up to bed. Instead, take her away from teh activity to a quiet place, have a cuddle for 10 mins with nice music and then try to settle her into bed.

I've not done PUPD yet as I think they're too young at this age - I'd sush pat but leave her in the cot with my hand on her chest patting gently while sushing if she gets really frustrated. Usually, I can sush her back to sleep through the baby monitor now as she's gotten used to the method so it's easier. I remember the early days though which were hell as she would really fight the need to sleep so I know how you feel! Luckily, 99% of the time she is pretty good....

Good luck!
Dx

[spanna]

Tks Deb, Things have come a long way since i posted all that!...thank God!.Eva actually slept thru the night last night ( icould see it coming nights ahve gradually changed..)......but thank you for the words of encouragement..........
we did have a strange afternoon today she wouldn't go down for her 4pm-ish sleep and 4pm slowly became 5 and 6. and hell was she tired.... but would she give in? NO We tried a little swim, bath and a shower too, eventually she went off about 7.30!!!!! poor love.... so i got my lovely sleeps night last night and paid for it today..... Nah! only kiddin'

Feed wise....We gradually upped her feeds and she reg takes 240mls now 4 x day plus DF of 180ml. the snacking took about 2 days to fix, the routine worked a treat for that!

thanks again, always good to get a helping hand when you need it most!

[* Paula *]

Great news about the STTN 

Sorry about the rough day. Perhaps she may need a routine tweak during the day when she sleeps so well at night?

How many hours A time is she doing now?

[spanna]

Hi Paula,
I know I'm beaming 

I think I just missed my chance in the afternoon to get her down to sleep in time and then she was too OT and very hot! today was better......
A usual day looks a bit like this;

E 7.30-7.30
A 7.30-9.00/9.15
S 9.00 - 10.30/11.00
y
A 10.30-11.00
E  11.00-11.30
A  11.30-12.00
S  12.00-12.45
Y
A 12.45- 14.15
S 14.15- 15.00
E  15.00- 15.30
A 15.30-16.45
S 16.45 -17.30
    17.30 BATH/SHOWER/MASSAGE
    18.00 STORY
E  18.15-18.20
    one more quick story in her room as part of WD
S  18.30/19.00

The end of the day varies according to how tired she is. Also she norm does one long sleep a day adn three short ones, but normally seems happy on this.....
Actually, over the last couple of days I have been wondering if I have been feeding her too soon? and not watching her ques,  and just feeding her anyway, as I didn't want her to go too far over the E time. Having said that she does drink it all.....What do you think?
Can the E time change when they start to sleep thru....? bit scared to change things when they are going so well.....don't want to break what isn't broke! if you know what I mean!

[* Paula *]

The short naps can be an indication that she is ready to increase her A times a bit.  Have you tried increasing her second and third A time by 15 minutes, to see if that helps her take a longer nap?  45 minute naps are a sure sign that she needs to increase her A time.

I would aim for feeds to be 4 hourly, but if she is showing signs of wanting a feed earlier, and is taking the full bottle and not snacking, I would say this is fine.