Strategy needed for excellent sleeper!

[babymunkey]

My LO has just turned one, and in the last 12 months has been a great sleeper on the whole - we had the 45 minute nap monster for a while, adn then did our turn with EWs, but mostly its been routine tweaks not sleep training that was needed. I never really got on with shhh/pat or needed to do PU/PD, we just found our own versions and ways that worked without falling into any AP traps - he sleeps through the night most nights, and as long as timing is right, he goes down for naps without any problem - most days

So my problem is a recent, and very infrequent one, but I do find it really frustrating. As we rarely have to settle him for naps or bedtime, when we do have a problem, I don't know how to help him settle. So having eliminated routine problems, hunger pain etc, where should I go next.

Today was a great example - usual routine, roughly 4 hours A time til 1st nap (same as last 2 weeks pretty much) wind down and bottle before nap at about 11.30, and normally he's  sleepy on his bottle, have a snuggle into my neck and then into bed (awake), and a quick kiss and I walk straight out. But today, he wouldn't settle, and cried and screamed and stood up for about 10 minutes, so I got him up for 15 and did quiet A time til ready to try again and repeat performance. It took another bottle (and will also have another post on props for naps - I think his bottle is heading that way) and another hour of crying til he finally went down at about 1.15. (and slept for 2 hours)

Would you recommend WI/WO or GW or PD for this - the problem with any sleep training method is this happens so rarely that we don't get to practice too much - nice problem to have, but no less frustrating...

H

[M and N's Mom]

I'm not sure what would cause it, unless like you said, you think the bottle is becoming a prop.  But, since he is an independent sleeper I'd be inclined to use wi/wo with a few words and a little bit of soothing (so they don't become a prop).  Enjoy the fact that this is infrequent for you...very lucky 

[babymunkey]

Thanks for the input - I know it must seem a ridiculous thing to complain about and I am very appreciative! But he gets so distressed if I try any kind of sleep tool on these days, and escalates so fast to all out screaming, I wanted to try a different way. I've just had the same performance for today's nap - I am wondering if he has made one of those sudden leaps in A time, but will have to do some tweaking to see. I tried putting him down 15 minutes later today, but no difference.

But still conscious that I need some kind of process for this or we will fall into some AP traps - today I tried PD, but after 30 minutes he didn't stop crying once, every time I put him down he was straight back up - well he doesn't go down really he keeps his knees bent so I can't lie him down. Every time I touch him or shh or rub his back he just screams louder - in the end I picked him up (I know Iknow!) and he went immediately queit and went to sleep on my shoulder - I put him down as soon as he'd stopped hiccuping ( ) - he was still awake but dosy - he cried a little and then settled.........

Am I doing it wrong, is it the wrong thing to use?

H

[M and N's Mom]

I don't think you are wrong to pick him up, but I'd be careful with letting him fall asleep on your shoulder.  Like you said, that is when you fall into the AP problems.  Pick him up, comfort him, and then put him down.

Do you think it could be SA? or teething?

[* Paula *]

Just wondering, has he had his 12 month growth spurt yet?  Could be that he is genuinely hungry and this is why he is not settling well?  Just a thought.  Have you weaned onto Cows Milk yet?  As this is not as filling as formula.  We found that DD started waking in the night when she had her growth spurt and had weaned onto cows milk, she was hungry, so we switched her last bottle to formula to help keep her full.

It might also be that he may need a bit more A time.  You said you kept him up 15 mins later, and he would not go down, perhaps try another 15 mins tomorrow?  I know when Abi increased her A times hers always jumped quite a bit, and at the moment is doing close to 5 hours A time on some days.

Is he going through any speration anxiety at the moment?  That could also be the case, and may need some reassurance?  How well is he going down at night time?

[babymunkey]

All good thoughts - his top teeth are FINALLY starting to poke through, but that hasn't caused us any problems really. I am sure its probably a timing thing - he goes down well at night, and until yesterday really easily for his am nap (the pm nap is another story but I am sure that's 2 1o 1 nap switch)

I had forgotten about GSs! EEk - will keep an eye on that Paula - thanks. He is still having at least 2 bottles of 8 - 10 oz a day of formula, as well as cows/goats milk in a sippy at b'fast and pm snack.......but he def wanted more milk yesterday, just wasn't sure if it was cos its a prop or he was hungry......

Will try another 15 mins tomorrow - he's tricked us before not showing any tired signs and we keep him up then he gives us a short OT nap.....has got a tooth coming through at the top, but he goes to bed no problem, and have had no NWs recently....so maybe not SA either (we've had no sign of that so far.......just a little bit of clinginess some days if he's sick or tired) - he's really mostly a very easy boy

I think what I'm stressing about is how to deal with this when and if and for whatever reason it happens, while I try and suss out the cause -am just reading Tracey's toddler book, so am conscious of her advice that AP now can be picked up so much more quickly and can be harder to solve.....and I find it so upsetting when he cries like that

H

[clazzat]

We have a similar problem with dd1, in that she is such a good sleeper that when it goes pear-shaped we don't know what to do (really not a problem with dd2, but that's a different matter!).  We found wi/wo really useful during the last stint of not settling (when she was 21 months, so quite a bit older than your lo).

When dd1 was about the same age as your lo we found that there were a few occasions when actually she needed much more sleep than we expected and the problems arose when she was OT - any chance that that could be a factor?  She still gets really tired when she is going through a growth spurt so we have to increase her sleep time to avoid settling issues.  We have definitely AP'ed when she was going through her difficult phases, but because we were aware that it could be an issue (and therefore if we found ourselves doing something often we stopped it before the issue arose) and it didn't happen much (and fundamentally she knows how to sleep) we got away with it - sometimes it's best not to beat yourself up too much when you are responding to the situation.

Good luck.
Cx

[mini me]

We (well me mostly!) also do WI/WO along with PD and seems to eventually work. I think the less interaction the better as long as LO sees you are still there (so as not to make SA any worse) and patience!! Although we don't get the screaming, Artemis' favourite thing is to giggle like it's all a game and boy, it is sooooo not funny!! We are now up to 4.5hrs A time and only ever 1 nap (except for today due to an unusual 5am wake up). But teething playing havoc with STTN at the moment (7&8 are coming thru!).
Thanks Paula for the 12mth GS reminder - I'd forgotten that one too!!
I was also aware that having a bottle of milk before nap could become a prop. Helen, where do you give him the bottle? I now make sure Artemis has it downstairs followed by up to 5mins more slowly getting her into bed, nappy change etc, just to separate it a bit from falling asleep (the bedtime one though, we still do in her darkened room).
Not sure if this is useful, but just though I'd throw in a few ideas that we do.

[sherry lynn]

H - how's it going? I think you already know, but we ended up with a huge decrease in A time at around 12 months also. Maybe a little later. I don't know if it just all caught up or what. Not sure. Getting ready to go post on my thread because we just has major issues for our nap time. I missed the window and I know he got OT. Yet again he seems to be needing more sleep. And this is odd for me because he doesn't tend to need as much as other LOs. Do you think he may actually need a decrease for teething, or a milestone? I think we are dealing with teething again here.

[babymunkey]

Hi ladies!

Clazzat - thanks for sharing - you are probably right, it happens so infrequently it probably won't become a problem - today was different in that as SOON as I picked him up he went quiet and tried to settle - usually he escalates more, pushes at me and twists in my arms and screams louder!

Andi - good suggestions re bottle down stairs, will incorporate that too. But maybe not til I've worked in story reading to replace it, then we can do bottle downstairs and story upstairs.........

Hi Sherry - sorry Lyle is giving you anothe puzzle! You could be right re shortened A times. We'd been doing only 3.5 1st A time til recently after a build up of OT from 1 nap, so I figured maybe he wanted to extend back to 4 or more. Its so hard, cos if you guess wrong and go the wrong way......well you know only too well!

Will see how the childminder gets on tomorrow.......

H

[sherry lynn]

Let us know how it goes. You know Lyle just likes to keep me guessing. As soon as I get used to the crazy low A time he will jump back up, but only after a day of no napping or something crazy like that.

[babymunkey]

 

OK so we've definitely got something going on - yesterdays naps were pants (was up at 6am, down at 10.15 and only slept 1.5, the childminder managed to get him back down for a pm nap, not sure what time, but she said it took a load of fighting sleep and crying) and bedtime was a pickle too - although cos I'm not sure what time he was up from his pm nap (DP collected him from the CM and doesn't do detail too well!) so I think that was more not quite ready as there was quite a bit of giggling and general pratting around as opposed to screaming! But it meant that after I put him down at 6.30 to help him catch up, he didn't get to sleep til 7.20....

So unsurpisingly, we then also then had our worst EW for ages - 5 am this morning. So I will do a seperate post on the EASY forum for input into routine/SA/teeth etc, but wondered if you ladies could give me more guidance on PU/PD? At the moment, we seem to be getting into the habit of having to go to sleep (or at least get very sleepy) on our shoulders (which is what is making me think SA? We've never cuddled him to sleep since he was barely weeks old)

H

[M and N's Mom]

Check out this link and the others in the FAQ for the Pu/Pd board:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69177.0

[* Paula *]

Huge hugs hun, I am sorry you are going through such a rough time.  I remember with DS he went through quite a few phases of SA.

What worked for us was to stay in the room with him, sit on the floor next to the cot and pat his back, but we did not make any eye contact, just kept on saying shhh, sleepy time.  I had to do this for a few days, and then started keeping my hand out of the cot and just sitting in the room, and I eventually started moving further and further away from the cot, until he was just put in his cot and I walked out the room.  It did take a little while though, I think it was about a week.

Do you think that he may be ready for 4.5 hours of A time now?  I see from the day that he woke at 6, he was down at 10:15 and only slept for 1.5 hours.  I have noticed that when DD starts taking a 1.5 hour nap, if I increase her A time slightly say by 15 mins, she generally naps longer - not sure it may be worth a try.

[babymunkey]

Thanks ladies - todays update is back to bed at 8.45 (from 5 am wake-up) and settle quite easily, although had to be cuddled again, but only slept 1 hr 20. Thanks for the PU/PD link - will go and have a read.

Paula - I'll start a seperate post re our routine tweaks, but you could be right - problem is combined with switching to 1 nap, I'm also trying to avoid OT.

My frustration on the PU/PD or just PD is he won't stay lying down! He keeps his knees under him as I put him down too, so to get him to lie down I have to sweep his knees out from under him and it feels wrong! But he's straight back up anyway, and even when he gets tired, he just stays on his hands and knees and wails - it breaks my heart so I have to pick him up. Will go and have a read.

thanks for the support girls - just not feeling strong enough to take on a huge routine sort out right now so its much appreciated!

H