Author Topic: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!  (Read 1343 times)

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Offline AgnieszkaBZ

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28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« on: February 11, 2009, 20:52:04 pm »
Hi! My son’s 28 months and he’s always been a poor sleeper. We’ve been through better and worse phases, including him sleeping through the night for a short period of time. But in the last couple of weeks the situation’s been getting dramatically worse and that’s why I need your advice.
Igor settles relatively independently. During the day he sleeps like an angel - after the wind down routine I put him into his crib and leave the room. Usually he calls me once, I enter the room and say it’s time to sleep, stroke his head and leave again. Then he settles on his own within 10-15 min and sleeps soundly until I wake him 2 hrs later. In the evenings it takes a bit longer for my son to settle, my husband needs to go into his room twice or three times (it seems to be my son’s idea of fun to be standing up in the crib and calling his father), but eventually Igor falls asleep relatively independently within 30 min at the most. BUT - unlike the nap time – he doesn’t sleep well at all. As a matter of fact he wakes up many times during the night. Let’s take the last night. He was asleep at 8.30 pm and during the first 2,5 hrs of his sleep he woke up 4 times!!! Then he woke up once more at 1.50 am and again at 2.25 – altogether it makes 6 times, a bit rough for one night! After the last NW he stayed awake for 1 hour and fell asleep not until 3.30 am. It’s not always this tough, but there is definitely a pattern – Igor wakes up mainly before midnight, i.e. in the first 3-4 hours of his sleep. After midnight he wakes up once or even sleeps through until 6-7 am.
When he wakes up he’s whining. I always give him a chance to settle back independently but he rarely does so, instead he starts crying and calling “mama”. Then I enter his room, say it’s time to sleep, mummy sleeps in the other bedroom and he settles almost immediately. My idea is to reassure him that he’s safe and not alone. However, sometimes he doesn’t fall asleep right away and the situation recurs after a few minutes. When this happens I wait longer before I go in; he knows already that I’m there, after all, and IMO he should settle back on his own. However, he does hardly ever so and eventually I must go again.
It looks like Igor wakes up in the middle of the night (why?) and yells for me or my husband as long as it takes to break our determination not to go (which he succeeds each time). His last set of molars is not in place yet, admittedly, but I wouldn’t blame all tough nights on teething – when I see that my son tries to settle again and again but can’t fall asleep during a reasonable time I give him medicine (like the last night). But in the majority of cases Igor settles back the moment he sees me entering the room, so it seems to me that there are other reasons for these NWs than teething.
His routine has been relatively steady for a longer time and worked for us in the past:
6-7 am WU
5-5,5 hrs A-time
2 hrs nap (usually until 2.30-3 pm)
5 hrs A-time (including dinner)
7.30-8 pm bath, bedtime, asleep at 8.30-9pm
We tried different scenarios (e.g. shorter A-time in the evening and accordingly earlier bedtime) but it didn’t affect the NWs and only caused an earlier WU, which I don’t fancy (Igor sleeps usually no more than 10 hrs in the night).
I’m very tired and desperate in need of sleep. In addition I’m due with a second baby in June and we must solve the problem till that time. I can’t imagine how to handle this situation with a newborn and therefore need your advice, please. Any help would be appreciated.
Agnieszka
Mama to
Igor, born 05 Oct 2006
Patryk, born 08 June 2009
Kielce, Poland

Offline deckchariot

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 02:03:21 am »
have you tried shortening his nap and moving his bedtime earlier?  At his age, most bubs are only sleeping 1.5 hrs in the day, so I just wonder if that's messing him up.  His night does seem short for his age, but it seems like that's always been his pattern.  Usually NWs early in the night (first few hours of sleeping) do indicate OT, which is why my first thought would be to go earlier on bedtime, but it looks like you didn't have any luck there - but I wonder if the long nap and early bedtime together don't work.
Michelle




Offline AgnieszkaBZ

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2009, 08:26:12 am »
Hi! Thank you for your reply!
We tried and shortened the nap to 1h45m in the past but my son woke up looking tired and needed some extra cuddle. These 15 min seem to make a difference for him.
However, since I didn't know what to do in the past two days I just resorted to an earlier nap and earlier bedtime (bed after 5h15min A-time incl. dinner, bath and wind down). And surprisingly it worked! :) Obviously, in the previous night my son needed to make up for the 6 NWs the night before and he slept THE WHOLE NIGHT THROUGH (11 hours altogether)! :o So I stuck to the earlier bedtime yesterday, too. Igor woke up only once, at 1am, and was asleep immediately after I stroked his head (maybe I should have waited a bit longer and he would have settled on his own, who knows). He woke up at 7 (or - should I say - has been woken up by our caretaker clearing of snow ::)) so it made 10h30min of his night time sleep altogether.
I'll stick to the earlier bedtime and let you know how it works.
Thanks once more!
Agnieszka
Mama to
Igor, born 05 Oct 2006
Patryk, born 08 June 2009
Kielce, Poland

Offline deckchariot

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 20:25:12 pm »
YAY!!  Hopefully you're on to something that will work :)
Michelle




Offline AgnieszkaBZ

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 18:13:55 pm »
Hi, it's me again.
After three good nights we had a setback, unfortunately.  Our previous nights looked as follows:
Wednesday: 8.15 pm asleep, no NW, 7.15 am WU (total 11 hrs sleep)
Thursday: 8.30 pm asleep, 1 NW, 7 am WU (total 10,5 hrs)
Friday: 8.30 pm asleep, 1 NW, 6.45 am WU (total 10h15min)
Saturday: 8.20 asleep, 2 NW (at 9.30 pm and 2.45 am), 6 am WU (total 9h40min)

All in all it looks like the situation's been getting worse every night, although we've stuck consistently to the plan "no-more-than-5.15 A time-in-the-evening". As you can see:
a) the total amount of sleep has decreased
b) every morning Igor has been waking up earlier and earlier
c) the number of NW has increased
Today Igor slept only 9h40min and was pretty tired at 6am. Although we left him in his crib he didn't fall asleep; instead he called us at 6.45 am again and that was it.
It's a vicious circle - earlier WU means earlier bedtime, but earlier bedtime doesn't mean necessarily longer sleep; in fact it means even earlier WU next morning. Where am I going wrong? Do you have any advice?
Agnieszka
Mama to
Igor, born 05 Oct 2006
Patryk, born 08 June 2009
Kielce, Poland

Offline deckchariot

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2009, 20:04:09 pm »
I wonder if it's not so much the A time before bed but the actual time of bedtime.  Some bubs just have a natural bedtime that seems to work best for them.  And I wonder if Igor's is between 8 - 8:15.  I know 8:20 is close, but by then, he was probably OT from the previous 2 nights, so that may not be a fair assessment.  But between the 8:15 bedtime and the 8:30 bedtime, that may just be out of his comfort zone.  I know it seems odd that 15 min could make a difference, but some bubs are sensitive to that.  I know my dd's bedtime needs to be 7:30 - 7:45 - if she goes down earlier, it's early wake up.  If she goes down later, it's NWs.  Doesn't matter if she woke from her nap at 3 or at 4:30.

Are you limiting the nap or letting him sleep as long as he wants?  How long have his naps been?  It could still be a case of too much daytime sleep. 
Michelle




Offline AgnieszkaBZ

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 08:03:54 am »
Yeah, you're right, 15 min can make a difference! IKWYM. And I saw that in Igor's case it definitely makes a difference. It makes absolutely sense what you say. What do you mean by "bedtime" BTW? I understand it as the moment when he is in his crib and starts to settle. If that's your definition, too, so I must say, Igor's bedtime was between 7.45-8pm in the previous days. Only it took him about 25-30 min to settle (except for the first night).
As to your "nap-question" - yes, I limit his naps always, otherwise he would sleep even 3-4 hours (without any breaks). Normally I wake him up after 2hrs at most or shortly before 3pm at the latest if it's less than 2hrs.
Yesterday was a crazy day with Igor's WU at 6am. We put him for the nap not until noon (so it was 6hrs A-time in the morning) and let him sleep till 2.30 pm (2,5hrs), otherwise the bedtime would have been to early for him. In the evening he was in his crib at 7.45pm and was asleep within 20 min (I suppose tired after the short night before). However, he woke up crying for water before 9pm (resettled right afterwards) and then again at 0.40. This time I had less luck - although he settled back right away, he was whining "mama" every few minutes for the next 40min. Eventually he started to cry and I had to go to him at 1.20 am. He fell asleep shortly afterwards and slept until 7.25 am. It looks like OT still, doesn't it?
My plan for today is to put him for the nap at 12.40 (probably asleep at 12.55), wake him up at about 2.50 pm and put him into bed at 7.50-8pm in the evening.
I have two more questions, BTW:
1. how do you manage to keep the bedtime steady at 7.30-7.45 pm when your dd wakes up very early? Which elements of the daily routine do you manipulate (if any) - A-time in the morning, nap or A-time in the evening? Usually I lenghten the A-time in the morning and - when it's not enough - the nap, too. But maybe there are other ways to do this?
2. one thing is that Igor wakes up at nights. But the other is that he rarely settles back on his own. Maybe I should try to work on this end, too? Does your dd settles back on her own? If this is the case, how have you achieved it?
Thank you once more for your help.
Agnieszka
Mama to
Igor, born 05 Oct 2006
Patryk, born 08 June 2009
Kielce, Poland

Offline deckchariot

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 20:51:00 pm »
sorry I've been absent  - we were on holiday and have only just returned.  How's it been going since I've been gone?  Yes, I consider "bedtime" as the time she's in her crib and settling (she will often talk to herself for 15-20 min before falling asleep - I still count bedtime as the time I put her to bed, as long as she's not crying)

Great questions - let's see if I can answer them :)
1.  when Abby wakes really early, I do shorten the morning  A time a bit - but even then, I don't put her down before 12/12:15 - and sometimes that can be really challenging, because if she's been up since 5, she's WAY crabby.  So I try to take her out of the house - the distractions of being somewhere else seem to help (her and me!) make it through the crabby time.  I will also let her sleep a bit longer for her nap (I usually try to keep it to 2.5 - 3 hrs as she needs more sleep than "average", but on an EW day, I'll let her sleep 3 - 4 hrs, just so she's up by 4/430).  So I do what you've been doing, and that seems to work fairly well for us.

2.  NWs - we now let Abby have a sippy cup of water in the crib - she was waking thirsty as well, and that has helped dramatically!  Also, we've done wi/wo for NWs - she had gotten sick and we'd done some APing to get through the NWs, and then had trouble with multiple NWs after she got better.  So we did wi/wo - it was really rough the first night, but got much better after that.  Now whenever we have a NW, we do the same thing - open the door, say "it's time for night night, grab your blankie, suck your thumb, lay down, it's time for night night" and close the door.  Most of the time, that's all it takes, occasionally, we'll have to do that multiple times - but we try to always say the same things - reminding her that's it's time for night night and directing her to her comfort items (thumb and blankie).  Does Igor have a lovie?  If not, this can be a great time to introduce something he can use to comfort himself.  I'm a big believer in wi/wo - that's how Abby's learned to settle herself.

hth
michelle
Michelle




Offline AgnieszkaBZ

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2009, 13:14:26 pm »
Hi Michelle! I hope you had a great time in a warm, sunny place! :) The only thing I’ve seen through my window for a long time is snow! ::)

In short: we’ve had better nights with – mostly – only one NW each night (usually after the first sleep cycle, i.e. 1-2hrs after falling asleep) and early wake ups at 5.45-6.30 am. Every time Igor woke up this early I tried to get him to resettle (WI/WO), sometimes successfully (he slept then until 7-7.40) and sometimes not. However, two nights in a row before last night were tough with 3-4 NWs each and early WU, but I think it was because of teething. That’s why I decided to give Igor medicine last night and he slept better, indeed - he woke at 11.30pm, then again at 5.45am but resettled and eventually woke up for the day at 7.40am.
Generally we’ve been following a consistent routine with flexible nap times and lengths (due to various WU-times) and a constant afternoon-part (5hr-5hr15min A time and bedtime at 7.50-8pm). So it looks like this:
WU at 6-7.40am
A time until 12.15-12.50 (depending on the WU-time in the morning)
nap until 2.45pm
7.50-8pm bedtime, asleep usually after 20min (one particular evening it took Igor 45min to fall asleep, though)

I see that we deal similarly with the both issues I’d asked you last time, except for the sippy cup – we’d put a cup in Igor’s crib in the past but it had only made NWs worse: Igor woke up many times in the night crying and asking for water without being really thirsty (he only took one gulp or so), but he never drank on his own. After we took the cup away the number of NWs decreased.
As for the NWs – we do the same with the same result (and yes, Igor has a teddy bear he sleeps with).

So I guess we'll just carry on like this for the time being. I decided to take exact notes of Igor’s amount of sleep, WU-times and the number of corresponding NWs for the next few days – maybe this will reveal a pattern that will help us to tweak Igor's routine even better avoiding NWs and early WUs.

Michelle, you're great! I can’t thank you enough for your help and advice!
Agnieszka
Mama to
Igor, born 05 Oct 2006
Patryk, born 08 June 2009
Kielce, Poland

Offline sambsmum

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2009, 12:01:57 pm »
Sorry to butt in on your forum, but I was reading because I have a similar issue with my son who is 2.5 years old who is in a 'big bed" so there is no control over him getting up to come out to our room.
I am learning through advice from others, that the exact amount of sleep is no science. You just can't predict what kind of night you will have with exact timing/hours etc. The exact same day can result in completely different nights.
I'm resolving recently, that this is all a phase that I just have to go through.
Many people have great results with kids perfectly sleeping through, many people have awful nights with children just not getting the night sleep working at all. Most of us (if we would all be willing to be honest) go through the week with various evenings, great sleeps some evenings, awful nights others.
I guess, I just have to accept that we are going through this phase right now, I need to stop trying to work it all out (its far too exhausting) and learn to work with it.
Just one suggestion for you - given you are expecting, I have taught my son that mid-day is sleep time for mummy and bubby and I have a great box of quiet toys he gets to play with only when mummy is asleep. He happily (and quietly) plays just outside my room for up to 1.5 hours whilst I and my 9 month old have a day sleep - its just my way of coping. I hope you find someway too!
Best wishes - I hope it gets better for you!

Offline AgnieszkaBZ

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2009, 12:37:44 pm »
Yeah, you're certainly right about "same day-different night", it's my experience, too. That's very confusing. I'm asking myself often questions like "why is he waking up at 5.45 one day and at 7.30 another" or "why is he falling asleep so easily during the day and makes such a fuss in the evenings". There are no answers to this, I know. Yet, I still hope that we can make things better with consistent and appropriate routine because the approach "to accept and to wait till it's over" frustrates me too much ::) I've already waited too long for my son's sleep pattern to change and this is the last moment to do something before #2 will be born.

Your idea of a huge box with quiet toys is great! Thank you! It's worth trying, even if my very spirited boy won't accept it right from the start.
I hope you and your son will go through the bad phase soon. Best wishes for you, too!
Agnieszka
Mama to
Igor, born 05 Oct 2006
Patryk, born 08 June 2009
Kielce, Poland

Offline deckchariot

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Re: 28 months, numerous NW - please, help!
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2009, 18:19:35 pm »
butting in is always welcome!! That's what BW is all about - helping each other :)  I too LOVE the idea of a quiet box of toys - and I LOVE the fact that you are taking time for yourself to get some sleep - well done!

It is true that sleeping and A times is far from an exact science.  The one thing that did help me was figuring out roughly how much daytime sleep Abby needs, and how much is too much - then I can better plan out her routine for the day based upon how long her nap is - too little sleep, I"m likely to have NWs, too much day sleep, EWs.  But even that isn't foolproof!

And teething messes everything up!!!  I've learned with the 2 yr molars (all we've got left atm) that the pain comes in waves, so she might be horrible for 2-3 days, then fine for a week or more.  So that's added a lovely dimension to trying to figure out her sleep!

I think you're doing wonderfully - you've got a flexible routine and you're adapting it as Igor needs, so I'd just keep doing what you're doing.  It does look like the NWs are improving, and hopefully the EWs will as well.

I would have LOVED to go somewhere warm and sunny, but we actually went where there was more snow ;)  but it was to see my parents, so that was well worth it!!!
Michelle