When to feed if baby wakes early from a nap?

[charmie]

When she wakes earlier from a nap, don't go in to her straight away.  Giver the opportunity to learn to re-settle herself.  At the same time she is having quiet time in her cot, which is far less tiring than proper a time with lights on and all the stimulation of a household.

As for tonight (hope I'm not too late...depending on where you are...I'm in UK) you can either go for an early bedtime or else try to squeeze in as many naps as possible in order to make the last a time short and sweet.

As for the rocking to sleep to get her out of the OT cycle, it can be done.  It's called APOP (Accidental Parenting On Purpose).  It's when you do some AP consciously, knowing that as soon as she's out of the OT cycle you will have to undo the APing. 

I agree with you that she might be using the breast for comfort.  Try to distract her and keep to her normal feeding times.  Otherwise you'll end up teaching her that she needs the breast to sleep.


Right now I would just feed her, change nappy, wind-down and back to sleep.  Is the room dark and quiet?

Are you using shush/pat to teach her to put herself to sleep?

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=141660.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85500.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64277.0

HTH

Let me know if you have anymore questions 


xxx
charm

[WillowTree]

Thank you so much, Charm... It's so good of you to spend so much time working with me on this.  I'm in the U.S. on the east coast, so I got your message in plenty of time for bedtime.  We put her down a little early tonight, as she was awake for nearly 3 hours this afternoon without being able to settle for a nap.  Can't win. 

Her insistence on nursing today made it very hard for her to go back to sleep.  When I would try to get her to wait to eat, she would just keep crying and not settle.  If I finally offered the breast, she would take it but then STILL not be able to settle.       

Yes, her room is dark (but not completely blacked out) and quiet (we use white noise) for sleeping.  Sometimes it helps her drift off if we lay a hand on her and shh her gently, but only sometimes.     

DH and I have been talking.  A few questions we have:

1. How will we know when she's out of her OT cycle?

2. If this plan to break her OT cycle doesn't work, how will we be able to tell when it's not working?  How successful is this tactic for breaking OT usually?

3. Once she is out of OT, it's possible we will still need to teach her to take longer naps (PU/PD, etc.).  If so, won't that push her right back into OT if it takes hours to get her to fall back to sleep when she wakes early?

4. With this new plan to break OT, she started fighting (screaming!) going back to sleep no matter how quickly we pounced on her sleepy cues.  Oddly enough, when we STOP trying to get her to sleep, she will usually cheer up (despite still being tired).  When we were trying to follow a 4-hour routine, Willow often fell asleep quickly for her naps -- sometimes in under 10 minutes, sometimes instantly.  (She just, as you know, wouldn't stay asleep.)  Today, with trying to break OT, we spent literally hours trying to get her to sleep for a single nap.  Her mood was also better prior to this.  Does this make any sense to you?

A little background on our LO: She used to take anywhere from 4-6 short naps a day, try to go to bed at 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, and wake extremely frequently at night.  She required hours and hours of rocking and very frequent nursing.  Things have improved since then.  She now falls asleep on her own sucking her thumb.  She sleeps in her crib. She has been sleeping through the whole night.

Thank you again.  I really look forward to hearing your thoughts. 

[charmie]

When she's out of the OT cycle, she will start to lengthen her a times again. 

From my experience short and quiet a times is the only way to overcome OT.  But the breast to sleep/settle is throwing a spanner in your works.  This way she will never learn the new way to go to sleep.  The message you are inadvertently giving her is that if she cries/fusses for long enough mummy will comfort her with the breast.

Once she is out of the OT cycle we can start working on her a times again.  It's much easier to lengthen the naps by getting the a times right rather than doing PU/PD etc.  If she gives you tired cues follow them.

It could be that she was falling asleep very easily when she was on the 4hr routine because she got exhausted by the end of the 2hr a time.  And then couldn't stay asleep because she was OT.  OT prevents them from transitioning to the next sleep cycle.  Have you ever stayed in her room for 1 nap to see what happens when she is coming out of the sleep cycle?  It's also worth having a look at what's going on during 1 of the blocks (EAS), a step by step, just to see if something jumps at me/us.

Would also like to follow the daily routine with you if you want.

Hope I didn't miss anything.


xxx
charm

[WillowTree]

Hello!  Thank you so much for your reply!  We just got back from taking LO to the doctor.  Epic.  Very bad morning + very long wait = baby awake for nearly FOUR hours.  I think I'm about to have a nervous breakdown.  I could've punched everyone in that office.

I've been holding out on her with the breastfeeding today.  Sometimes I've given her the breast a bit before the 3.5 mark because I was afraid the feeding time would hit JUST as I was able to get her to sleep.

To be honest, I wonder if I'd notice the end to the OT cycle, Charm.  You see, I tried putting her down very quickly today -- BEFORE she even had a chance to show tired signs -- and, sure enough, as soon as I started winding her down, she'd start yawning, rubbing her eyes, fussing.  It's almost like lately, by the time she shows tired signs, it's already too late... so I was trying to pounce on her immediately rather than waiting for cues.  Is that a bad idea?   

She took some longer rests (is that evidence of any progress, I wonder?), but wasn't going past 45 minutes.  (And it was very clear once I started quickly trying to wind her back down that she wasn't happy about being awake.)

I do stay in her room for most naps to watch her.  Today she was jolting awake for the 45-minute naps.  I tried holding her limbs a bit, but wasn't successful. 

I think you're right about the 4-hour routine exhausting her.  We don't have much of a routine going right now.  It's all one big "go back to sleep," so it's kind of a chaotic mess.  If it helps, today looked something like this:

6:20 - Woke
6:40 - Got her up (tried to give her a chance to fall back to sleep, but she started crying)

E 6:40-7:00 (thought about waiting until 7:00 since that is the wake-up time we'd like to shoot for, but knew it was important to get her back to sleep quickly)
A Kind of non-existent, started winding her down right after eating
S 7:15-7:50 (35 minutes; put her down at 7:00 in advance of sleepy cues, took her 15 minutes to fall asleep)

E None
A 7:50-8:37 (quiet play in crib mostly)   
S 8:50-9:33 (43 minutes, jolted awake; put down at 8:37 in advance of sleep cues, took her 13 minutes to fall asleep)

A 9:33-10:00 (probably kept her up too long here, but was trying to get to the next feeding so that it didn't interrupt a nap)
E 10:00-10:20
A Just a blip to separate eating from sleeping, mostly winding down
S 10:56-11:43 (47 minutes, jolted awake; took her over 30 minutes to fall asleep)

E None
A 11:43-12:02 (tried to resettle her within just 20 minutes of waking; could tell she was not happy to be awake - lots of sleepy cues while winding back down)
S 12:50-1:05 (only 15 minutes and she woke crying! took her nearly 50 minutes to fall asleep in the first place - kept dozing and then crying when i tried to put her down)

E 1:10-1:30
A Tried to settle her immediately after eating, but she just babbled tiredly at me
S 3:37-? (She's sleeping now. Had to see her pediatrician at 2:20 and couldn't get in any sleep before that. Didn't get home until 3:30!! My poor baby!!!)

I would love, love, love your thoughts on designing a routine for LO.  Right now, with this OT business, I feel like it's impossible to give her any consistency.  And I'm wanting to get her back to sleep so quickly that I'm hesitant to wait for cues -- I'm afraid she's not giving them soon enough!

I'm out of my mind with worry.  Any guidance you can offer would be greatly appreciated.  No more appointments for LO, so we can keep napping her as much as possible all through the weekend if you think that's how we should proceed? 

My best to you and yours!

(A little follow-up... I just wanted to let you know how the day ended: She took that last nap until 4:29, so she slept for 52 minutes there.  But, of course, that was after being awake for nearly 4 hours.  We couldn't get her to settle for another nap, though she did want to go right back to sleep.  So we decided to just put the poor dear to bed early at 6:00.)

[WillowTree]

We are having a lot of trouble keeping those A times short enough.  Even when we do nothing with her except try to get her to go back to sleep, and even when it's clear that she really wants to go back to sleep, we still can't get her to sleep quickly enough.  She ends up being awake for well over an hour no matter what we do.  Even old tricks like sitting with her in the rocking chair don't work.  And new tricks, like rocking her in my arms by her crib until she relaxes, are starting to fail, too. 

I don't see how on earth we'll ever get this baby rested.  She's been chronically over-tired for ages.  I don't know how we let this happen to her.    

It's all feeling pretty hopeless...

[charmie]

If she is jolting during naps she is still OT.  You need to keep the a times short and quiet.  What are you doing to get her to sleep?  Do you do the 4s wind down routine?  What is happening during the 15mins it takes her to go to sleep?

You're right in feeding her earlier if you think it's going to clash with her nap.  And also in giving her an early bedtime.  I hope she can make up the lost day sleep at night.

As I told you at the moment you cannot follow any kind of set times routine.  You just need to keep following E, A and S, and Pray for the OT monster to go away.

It would also help to do the temperament test.  Here's the link;
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52283.msg361646#msg361646

How did today go?


xxx
charm

[WillowTree]

We are trying incredibly hard to keep her from being awake for long.  It's just that she struggles so much to return to sleep that she ends up being awake for too long.

We aren't doing the 4S wind-down exactly because she hates being swaddled.  To wind her down, we walk her around her nursery in our arms while dimming the room and turning on white noise.  We change her diaper while singing softly to her.  Then we hold her in our arms for a few minutes in front of her crib before lying her down.  That seems to be a strong signal to her, as she'll usually start closing her eyes and sucking her thumb at this point.  Sometimes she's okay to be put down in her crib (for instance, it's never a problem at night, and rarely a problem early in the day), but as the day goes on, she gets harder and harder to put down.  She'll sometimes stay calm in our arms by her crib, sometimes even start falling asleep there.  And sometimes she'll start to arch her back and cry, which we know definitely is a sign that she's over-tired.

During the time it takes her to go to sleep (which can be as little as 10 minutes and as much as an hour), she is usually either in her crib fussing/mantra crying, working on sucking her thumb, opening/closing her eyes, etc.  Basically, she's trying to fall asleep.  We put a hand on her and speak softly to her if it seems like it will help.  Sometimes it does.  Sometimes it's distracting to her.  We'll pick her up to soothe her in our arms if she begins to cry. 

We are definitely not trying to follow any set routine.  I'll summarize our day for you tonight, as well as take the quiz you suggest.  I really don't want to take up much more of your time.  I know you have plenty of other moms to help.  I truly appreciate the insight you have offered.  Thank you so much.

[charmie]

It's completely up to you, but I would give swaddling another chance.  I also used to think that dd hated being swaddled, but i eventually had to give it another try, and it worked really well, until she started wriggling out of it.  The swadlle helps in that it makes them feel safe and snug.  It always helps during the jolts.  Here's a link ;

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=1439.0

I am also wondering if she'd do better if you could let her fall asleep on her own.  So once you put her down in the crib, you say a phrase such as 'goodnight, see you later', or 'time to go to sleep'.  Always use the same phrase, and leave the room.  You might be interfering with her going to sleep process.  Also when she starts fussing by the crib, it could also mean that she wants to settle herself in the crib not in your arms.  Try to put her down immediately and see if she stops arching her back and fighting.

It's a pleasure to help you.  Some mums need more help then others and that's fine.  God knows I was a mum who needed more help than anyone else 


xxx
charm

[WillowTree]

We would definitely try swaddling again, but DD counts so much on being able to suck her thumb to get to sleep.  She really started fighting us on the swaddle at around 3 months -- and also started wiggling out of it.

We are now trying even harder not to interrupt her process of falling to sleep.  We may misstep here at times -- we don't want to inadvertently leave her to cry alone when we're not sure if what we're hearing is a "genuine cry" or "mantra cry."  We think most of it is mantra, so we try to stay away... but still get worried that we're leaving her on her own for too long since it takes her so long to fall asleep. 

I don't want to throw too much information at you, so I'll try to keep this brief:  She has been having a little NW and EW since we started trying to get her out of OT.  Yesterday she took 4 naps -- one for about 35min, two for about 50min, and one for about 45min.  She tried and tried to nap again at the end of the day, but she just couldn't get to sleep.  A lot of screaming.  Eventually we had to just get her up and go through her bedtime routine.

No matter how quickly we respond to sleepy cues (even the most subtle ones -- "Was that a sigh?"  "Do her eyes look at all glazed to you?") and no matter how quiet and short we struggle to keep those A times, we can't seem to make progress -- or to avoid the long stretches of wakefulness near the end of the day and the long periods of time trying to fall asleep.

The struggle for me is... We used to parent her this way.  Always trying to read cues.  And we took it too far -- never getting her into a healthy daily rhythm.  She was miserable and exhausted.  Her sleep was always broken and ineffective.  We truly believe she needs structure, and God knows she needs those longer naps.  I'm at a loss, Charm, I really am.  DH is home from work today and we're trying our best to sort this out together... to figure out what is best for DD and how to give it to her.

[charmie]

I really feel for you believe me ...

There is another way we could go...  We can find a routine that you think is suitable for her temperament and for her age, and you try to stick to it no matter what in the hope that eventually she'll fall into it.

Ideally you would also do the temperament test.  Here's the link;

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52283.0

xxx
charm

[charmie]

I found these too;

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69369.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=141660.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=10385.0


xxx

charm

[TDR'smom]

Sorry, have not had a chance to read through the entire thread but just a thought on A times.  What if you put her down BEFORE you see any sleepy cues?!?!?  Have you tried that?

[WillowTree]

TDR'smom, thank you so much for your response.  I really appreciate everyone reaching out with suggestions.   

Unfortunately, we have tried putting her down before seeing any sleepy cues and, on the whole, we still end up with a mess.  Before sleepy cues, during sleepy cues, after sleepy cues... It seems to be all the same for DD.     

[WillowTree]

Charmie, I think starting to go for a routine is the only hope we can see for helping her.  I will take that test straight away and let you know the results.  Thank you yet again for everything you are doing to help our family.

[WillowTree]

Charmie, you won't believe this... or maybe you will given my descriptions of how much trouble we're having.

LO is a crazy mix of all of these things.  We answered as clearly as we could.  She had slightly more "textbook" than other things (good gracious, that sure doesn't seem right, does it?!) and then equal amounts of touchy, grumpy, and spirited.  Oh dear.  She's like 8 different babies rolled into one.  No wonder we're struggling over here...

*sigh*

Perhaps it is indeed just time to accept defeat and go back to Tracy's plan to get a never-been-on-a-routine-before-4-month old on a routine.  (The link you provided is great -- corresponds perfectly with pp 36-49 of TBWSAYP.)  The last thing we want is to worsen OT, but we just can't seem to win.