Complete routine chaos - when E falls in S!

[*Liz*]

Hello all - I thought I'd just ask for a bit of routine advice for my 6mth old who is causing my general chaos (really what else is new  . He is a long term short napper - although this has improved lately. He has treated reflux and has been a terrible snacker as a result - which again I have put lots of work into and have improved.

My new problem is that whilst extending his A times I am getting in a mess as E is starting to fall in S and as he is prone to snacking its difficult to know what to do for the best. I've started solids but his reflux is making it pretty slow going. I'm concerned pre feed top ups might cause the snacking again - and then the waking every 2-3 hrs all night for a little ctach up buffet  .

The other issues are NWings and EW - I'm pretty sure this is due to UT naps leading to OT at bedtime and then an UT EW? I then don't know what to do with the first nap. I'm almost sure a more consistent start time for the nap would help but with the random EWs it is hard. We are well and truely at the 'need to drop the catnap' bit - but this only works on a good day. But on a bad day I still can't really fit it in and either get a very OT baby or fit it in too late so it impacts on bedtime.

I'll give you the past 3 days;

Sunday                                                                          Monday

Awake 5.55 (also awake from 2.55 until 4.30)                       Awake 6.10am (singing in cot)
     (left in bed singing)

E 7am (BF 10 mins one side)                                              E 7.10 am (BF 5 mins very distracted - not hungry as fed at 5am)
A                                                                                  A
S 8.45 awake 10.25                                                         S 8.55 awake 10.55
E 10.45 (5oz)                                                                  E 11.10 (5oz)
A                                                                                  A
S 12.30 awake 13.00 (fell asleep in buggy at zoo!!)                S 13.55 awake 14.25 - crying, resettled awake 15.25
A                                                                                  E 15.25
S 14.15 awake 14.30 (in car - I'm sure wasn't really tired)       A
A                                                                                  E 18.20 asleep 18.45
E 15.00 (7oz)                                                                 
A Very fussy now                                                             NWing 23.30 (6oz)
S 16.10 woke by me at 17.00                                                       5.20 (singing for 1 hour in cot - cried so fed - asleep 6.20
A                                                                                                      woke by me at 7.40am)
E 19.00 asleep 19.30

NW 23.30 (7oz)
      3.15 went back to sleep - I didn't go in
      4.15 fussing, tossing, I fed at 4.30, asleep at 5am

Tues

Awake 7.40am

E 7.45 am (5mins BF not hungry, playing)
A
S 10.20 awake 11.05 (fussing, smiled and kicked when I went it, screamed when I tried to extend)
A
E 11.45 (5oz)
A
S 13.50 (in buggy awake 14.35)
E 14.45 (5oz)
A
S 16.00 ..... I'll wake him after 45 mins if he doesn't wake himself to keep a 7pm bedtime

Now I know we are working on A times on the higher side of normal - and I think sometimes that does lead to OT - but 2h45 mins in the am seems to give a long nap even after lots of NW/EW issues. Today the A time was 2h 35mins and although we did have the EW he had been asleep for 1.5 hrs before I woke him up. Unless that was OT as he hadn't been in the cot for an hour first? I've eventually started to lengthen after being convinced for ages that he was OT - but thinking back to 2 months ago his nights were better with just wakes up for food and his naps were awful - so only having 3 x 40 min naps a day. So maybe he does just need more A time? Then on days like today when he had 2 short naps I have to try and fit in a catnap. Its hard to make him fall asleep again before at least 1.5 hrs but then that puts the nap too close to bedtime - but he can't go 4 hrs until bedtime after only 2 short naps.

He's independent to sleep, no props, could go back to sleep at night when he wakes if he wants to!

I also need a new feeding schedule - I was wondering about doing a bit of alternating between 3 and 4 hrs?

I need to cut that 5am feed too as he doesn't seem that hungry then ie has sang for 30 mins before so the wake up itself wasn't hunger, and its affecting his 7am feed. But does a 6mth old still need a night feed until they are on solids?

Now if we are heading towards 3hrs A time E falls in S - part of the problem yesterday afternoon.

Sorry so long  .
I'm sure others have had these issues at the same age - so just wondering what others did to get out of them?

[huntersmummyinoz]

wow he certainly is doing some long A times! however the 45 min nap tuesday could be UT, usually this time nap means UT.

what techniques have you tried to extend the second nap?

E - it's fine to switch between 3/4hrly if needed. remember EASY is about the order of your routine, timings wont always be exact. do you think he is waking early because he is hungry? i had to do a split feed on either side of an afternoon nap for a while as my LO was waking hungry. but i understand your concerns if he has been a snacker before

are you bf or bottle or both?

has he started solids?

[*Liz*]

Yeah, the A times are long, I sometimes think too long because we go down the OT route quite easily, but any shorter and I get short naps again. I think he handles for a few days and then gets OT so I decrease again and around we go. It is often the second nap which is short no matter what - so an A time issue I think.

Nap extension - usually a bit of a no go really. If he wakes at 30 mins crying then I can extend with shh/ptt or PU/PD. But if I try with a 40 min nap it takes 45 mins of PU/PD then he will go back to sleep for 10 mins and I'll hear singing on the monitor so I assume UT? So, I don't tend to do it unless I'm sure he is upset and needs to go back to sleep - I tend to get up and try a short A time next.

My lo just doesn't really like split feeds! I have had some success in the past feeding at 5pm and 7pm. But a 5am BF completely kills the 7am feed. I'll have to think of a creative breast/ bottle comb to trick him!!

I combo feed now having recently introduced a bottle - so BF morning and before bed, bottles during the day(4-5oz), and at the first night feed (usually about 1am - 6oz), then BF if needed at 5-6am. I'm using a mix of EBM and formula at the mo - but intention is wean to formula.

I have started solids - but as he has reflux it is slow going. I think it might need to be the BLW route for us to avoid making him more sickly - but of course then it will take longer to spread his feeds.

[huntersmummyinoz]

what about W2S (wake to sleep) for that second nap? http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0
also many LOs need a slightly longer second A time, the morning one is often shorter. but before trying slightly longer, i'd actually try maybe 5/10mins less and see if that makes a difference, as he is stirring at 30/35min mark which indicates OT.

are you doing a df?

maybe a mix between purees and BLW? so find a couple of 'safe' foods that he does okay with, doesnt spit after etc, do a couple table spoons of that, followed by some BLW. what time are you offering solids? ideally it should be around 1hr after milk feeds, building up to 3 meals a day.

[*Liz*]

I did try W2S a while ago with no luck. I thought that it works best in combination with the right A time? He does sametimes take long pm naps too.

I agree about trying reduced A times first;

Today has looked like this
NW 00.30am (6oz)
05.45 singing in crib went back to sleep at 6.20 awake for day at 7.00
E 7.10 (poor feed too distracted)
A including a horrible choking episode with BLW  . Despirately needed him to have a drink to clear his mouth so gave another BF
E 8.45 started falling asleep during this even though A only 1h 45 but ?due to am crib party so put to bed but took 30 mins sucking his bear to fall asleep
A
S 9.35 awake 11.35 
A
E 12.00 (2oz!!!)
A Bfing support group and a bit late leaving soooo
S 14.50 awake 15.15 (in buggy 3h 15 A - clearly OT!!)
E 15.30 (6oz)
A wind down only but fussed for 40 mins until fell asleep
S 16.30 .......

And this is a common issue as I think when he wakes it is too close to his 7pm bedtime and causes his 5am crib parties. I think we have had 10 days of them now - and at least they are at 5am instead of 3am  . I think these in combo with the increased A times might be causing OT now. A time this morning was 2h 30.

Also shows the issues we have with snacking 

So I don't know what to do now - he'll prob wake at the 45 min mark - but if not when would I wake him? Bearing in mind he's only had 25 mins sleep since 11.35 this morning. I tend to think he needs 2h A before bedtime but I can't really let him only have a 30 min nap now?

We are doing a combo of purees and BLW but, to be honest, neither are going very well and I think it will be some time until he's on significant amounts of solids. He's been trying purees for over 6 weeks now. And he is starting to fall down the centiles on the weight charts Still gaining - but not as expected. He's a very small one anyway though so doesn't have much ground to lose.

I don't df - I just wait for him to wake. Do you think its worth starting at this age though - I mean he's 6 mths already?

I'm thinking I should stick with 2h 30 A for a few days and see what happens? Do you agree?

[huntersmummyinoz]

df, no wasnt suggesting start now as you'd only have to wean it in a month or two. rather not having it will mean he will prob need one night feed for another month or two.

catnap, if he didnt wake on his own at 45 mins i would prob wake him then anyway. one sleep cycle that late in the day should be enuf to get him thru to normal bedtime.

what nature/type is your bub?

crib parties can be a sign of needing more A time.

A times, i'd stick to your previous times, esp the first one as that got you a good nap. just try the slightly shorter for that second A time in order to rule out OT.

i notice he has quite a few naps out and about, nothing wrong with that, but are you able to dedicate a week or two at home to try and sort out his day?

[*Liz*]

Well when you asked if I could stay in for a while I couldn't, but now I can so am back onto it!!

I'm having the same old trouble really - need to lengthen A time to avoid short naps. He handles it for a few days and then seems to get OT again.

He woke at 6.20am this morning. I left him in the cot until 7am, then down for nap at 9.20am so 3h A from time of waking. Stirred at the 35 min mark but slept on, then stirred again at the 1.5hr mark and then I woke him after 2h 10 min (was seeing if he would wake himself first). Then I went for 2h 45 A after that and he woke crying at 30 mins but I have been able to resettle. Pretty much the same happened yesterday but with a 3h A after the first nap - hence why I reduced today.

So, why is this happening? Do I just need to go with it for a few days in the hope that it is just him adjusting? Should I start letting him get up when we wakes if after 6 am so there isn't a long period in the quiet cot as this might be confusing me about his A time. That said though he woke at 7.15am on sunday and we did 3h A and got a nice long nap with no middle of the road wakings.

He is an angel baby with a touch of spirited for sleep and food!!! Odd combination. Thats why naps are a pain but he sings in his cot for an hour at a time in the middle of the night without me needing to go in  .

Isn't it a bit odd that he would need a shorter A time at lunchtime? I thought babies tended to stay the same or need longer A times as the day wears on?

I'm so keen to set his body clock a bit now - can that work at this age? I think we need to get to 2 naps a day - so is it worth putting up with some resettling in the middle rather than shortening the A times again. Or will this just lead to OT?

Thanks again

[huntersmummyinoz]

at his age average A times are 2hr45 to 3hrs so i think you are aiming for the right amount of time. the first nap is closer in nature to night sleep which may be why he is sleeping better then. i still think W2S could be worth a try if you get consistent 35min wake ups, as perhaps this is when your bub transitions into the next sleep cycle, even tho it is typically 40/45mins. have you observed his naps in the past to see at what time he transitions?

you are right that the time spent in his cot in the morning can confuse A times in that he has a lot of low key A time during that time. however if he is happy to stay in his crib i would leave him in there til 'up' time as it will make your life much easier down the track if he is happy to sit and play in there for a while.

singing in the cot for an hour can indicate that he needs longer A time during the day. as if they dont get enuf during the day they can start to make their own unofficial A time during the night! once he can handle enuf A time to drop the catnap you should find he has a more restful sleep over night.

35 min naps indicate OT but if you cant extend his naps on slightly shorter A times, then yes you need to go for the longer times and help him extend. however if you can extend on the shorter times you could go with that and increase his A time more gradually to avoid OT.