can you shhh pat for too long?? and other q's ....help!

[prupants]

Hiya,

I've been having trouble with 30 min naps and am currently working on making my 13 week old Charlie have longer activity time - I have a few q's
1, is the wind down A time or S time??
2, Can you shhh pat for too long and become a prop?
3, Do you hold them for no longer than 5 mins from when they are calm or when you pick them up??

I am having trouble telling when Charlie is totally alseep, sometimes he kind of huffs and seems to relax, sometimes he jolts, sometimes nothing. I am soooo patient in the shhhhh shhh shhh and try to stay past when I think he asleep but am loosing will. soooo tired and I shake constantly from the adrenalin/ fear in his room (I know this doesn't help) fear he will wkae up ad I am trapped in there for another hour!!

my new schedule is on my 30 min naps post

any advice soo much appreciated xx 

I hate moaning - he is so sweet, i just want him to sleep!!

[jenniewren]

I remember that feeling when my lo was struggling with short naps...spent ages trying to extend naps with no luck, sent me nearly crazy! In the end I had to just go with it & let him have lots of naps a day, then one day I was on the phone when he woke & he went back to sleep! - things have improved since then, & now he has at least 1 nap that's 1.5-2hr a day, sometimes even in the afternoon. I'm lucky in that he's pretty cheerful whatever sleep he's had.

As far as I understand the wind down is included in A time, so you want him in the cot/crib & asleep at the end of his A time...doesn't always happen like that though!!

I used shh/pat - (or my own version - rubbing his chest as he didn't like patting) for several weeks until he was sound asleep - i.e. I waited past the jolts until his breathing changed to a deeper level, then I knew he was asleep. I think there's some info on how to do ssh/pat on this site somewhere which describes how they 'melt into the cot' when deeply asleep? Gradually I found he was able to settle with less support - I would leave him to it and intervene if & when he needed it. Now I only need to use it if he is OT.

HTH

[prupants]

Thanks,

have been wondering about w2s but all the info says about going in at 35 mins, what do you do if your baby wakes at 30? go in at 20? 

[jenniewren]

I think that 30 minute naps are due to being OT? So perhaps if you've posted your routine on the EASY board someone may be able to help you with sorting that?

I don't know what you'd do with a 30 min nap re w2s...you could try at 20 I guess and see what happened.. It never worked for me. it maybe be better to approach it by looking at your routine etc?

One thing I meant to say is that I had got so obsessed with short naps that I stopped enjoying my lo which was crazy because he is happy & gorgeous! I had to take a step back and go with the flow & start enjoying him again - once I had relaxed a bit I think he did too - I;m sure he was picking up on my tension, which prob didn't help things.  This stage won't last forever...

[~ Vik ~]

Hi prupants

30 minute naps are a pain!  I know what you mean about the fear of him waking up... Huge hugs, I have been there!!  Hopefully I can help with your questions

A time is everything from when eyes first open to when they close to sleep.  So your wind down/shh pat/etc. is all part of your A time.  The trick is to get started on your wind down so that your lo is asleep when he "should" be iykwim.  So if his nap should start around 8, you would want to start your wind down at 745ish for example, with the goal of him being asleep around 8.

The great thing about shh/pat is that you can gradually reduce the help you're giving him to go to sleep.  When they're very young, Tracy recommends shh/patting until they've been asleep for nearly 10 minutes to ensure that they're in a deep sleep before you walk away.  As they get older, and more capable of sleeping independently, you would gradually reduce the help that you're giving.  So pat until they're just falling asleep and then keep a hand on them, then pat until drowsy and keep a hand on, then just hold your hand on, etc (however it works best for you and your lo).  In that way, shh/pat isn't a prop, it's a sleep-teaching tool.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64275.0

Unfortunately I can't answer your third question from personal experience, as I never used pu/pd (My ds is spirited and that would have just made a big mess! )  But in the book, Tracy says that for 3-4mo you would pick them up and hold them until calm, up to 4 or 5 minutes.  But remember that the goal of pu/pd is to teach self soothing skills, so if your lo calms down in only 2 minutes you would put him down right away.

Here is a link on w2s for you too:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

I hope that helps!
Vikki

[mooglimoo]

I am soooo patient in the shhhhh shhh shhh and try to stay past when I think he asleep but am loosing will. soooo tired and I shake constantly from the adrenalin/ fear in his room (I know this doesn't help) fear he will wkae up ad I am trapped in there for another hour!!

Hi, I know just how you feel but it WILL get better and your LO WILL get the hang of it soon! I went through a stage of getting so worked up if my DS wouldn't nap for long enough- if it happened first thing then I thought my whole day was doomed! It does help to try and keep perspective and try to remember to enjoy them while they're so wee...

With shh/pat, the way I did it was, if my lad is particularly worked up I would stay shhing and patting until he looked pretty sound asleep upto 30mins sometimes (!) but if he was just a little grumpy I would shh/pat just until calm and then leave him to self soothe. I've gradually done this more and more so now he can self soothe (usually) and use shh/pat when OT.

I use 20-30mins of his A time in order to get my lad settled and asleep...

HTH

Lorna x

[prupants]

Thankyou soo much for your advice,
I feel like things are going from bad to worse and I don't know where to start to get back on track now.

I tried extending his A time (my schedule and Info on EASY forum)

he was def OT when I started wind down but chilled with the shhh pat and was CONVINCED he was sound asleep - all the signs were there....so I thought (because of his 30 min nap habit) stay with him for 10 more mins. Am sure this woke him up, the more I patted I could hear his breathing getting faster and faster and bam...I had to start all over again, I think this happend yesterday too ( he often takes ages to settle but this was different) Is it possible that I was bothering him. I used to pat for a while then mainly shhhh and it used to work but then the 45min naps started, then 30 min.I read the book, go on this site backwards forwards getting myself more and more worked up!
I cry ALOT and just don't know what to do...so many people keep advising CC and CIO and it is so tempting but I feel like I have come so far with this. His bad naps are now affecting his night sleep which used to be great. I feel like I am failing him - I am doing something wrong but what??
He seems to be loosing ability the self soothe that I think he once had - but he has it at night??
If he it OT already (by the time his feed is due he will have napped for 30 mins) How do I tweak the day without having all this time left over at the end of the day..yesterday ended up a mess!
Ramble ramble so sorry - Do I keep messing things up when I go out and about? If I don't I feel like I will loose it all together, I try to stay home as much as I can but they are the days I get so wound up - this can't be helping my relationship with my lo?

[~ Vik ~]

Huge huge hugs for you, you sound so frustrated    Don't feel like you are failing, you are doing the best you can to help him, and he is lucky to have a mom who loves him so much!!

I feel like the link queen but here are some for you that really have helped me:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65443.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64274.0

And to help you stay firm and not let him CIO:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63839.0

Instead of continuing to pat/shh past that 30 min mark, have you tried just holding your hand on his back?  The pressure and contact may be enough to get him through without disrupting him.  Might be worth a try?

I will try to find your post on the EASY board and see if there's anything different I see.  And don't forget that EASY is flexible!  Until you get this sorted out, if your little guy has 6 30min naps throughout the day, that's better than an OT bub at bedtime!  Keep your feeds as close to schedule as possible, but if he's due for a feed in the middle of a nap, don't hesitate to feed before!  Avoid feeding to sleep (do a diaper change or something in between) but don't stress about keeping to the perfect EASY.  Take it one day at a time, and know that there's lots of us here to try and offer advice and support!

More hugs for you and your lo.  Take a deep breath and remember to enjoy him... It's so hard right now, but it will get better, I promise!
Talk soon

[Tweakster]

Hi Prupants,

You are not doing anything wrong!  Big hugs to you.

Right now at his age he is becoming more aware of the big world out there.  Day sleep tends to fall apart about now.  It happened with DS (who is now 16 weeks).  They get their night sleep sorted before day sleep.  He is now going to need day sleep as he gets more active etc. - he will work it out with your help but it takes time. 

DS always went to bed with barely a peep (unless OT) but naps are a battle EVERY DAY.  I started shush/pat at 12 weeks and kept going at it.  There were days I had to get out - you do need to do this.  Then when you feel like you can, you tackle it again. 

Try to get in as many naps as you can to keep him from OT and put him to bed earlier if necessary.  Aim to be consistent but don't drive yourself crazy doing it - enjoy him and take time for yourself, it's important. 

Now DS goes down far better for his naps, and I no longer have to pat.  I just apply pressure to his back and feet - he's a Touchy so he likes pressure.  There is so much improvement in just a few weeks.  But yes it took weeks and not days.  I rarely have to AP - in fact he is at the point he no longer likes AP.  As he continues to grow and develop and go through changes, things will change up.  But once the basics are in place, you can always get back on top of it.

Please read the research on CC/CIO and when things get tough you have a place you can come to let it out and get some help, hugs and support :-) 

[prupants]

You guys really are a comfort - thankyou so much,

Think my dh thinks I am crazy scanning and scanning on the computer but it really helps me to know I am not alone!!
I have alot of friends who are quite shocked by my behaviour right now (ie: obsessed with naps and routine!!) thats not really how it is - I just want to give consistency to my lo

I've been on EASY since he was about 5 weeks (due to Breast feeding initially) but have been shh patting since he was born, am I being too impatient to think this isn't working? I would be more than happy to let my lo have 6 x 30 min naps a day but it takes AT LEAST 20 mins of shh pat to get him down sometimes up to an hour, sometimes it just doesn't happen - so would I gain anything??

I have tried a more relaxed approach today (having dh around to tag team helps lol!!) and Charlie fell asleep for the first time in weeks on his own (woke after 30 of course) I then treid going in, giving the paci, talking gently and patting his tummy a little (Is it ok to put pressure on tummy the same as you would the back?) and he would be calm for 5 - 10 then cry again so I was up and down the stairs! - Dilema: is this the same as CC? I was certainly calmer but I am aware that his sleep must have been worse than when I am in his room consantly with the sshhh pat ( I figure if he is calm and kind of dozing it's better than crying)

Did I take the wrong tact today?  would love to know your thoughs, ta xxxxxxxxxxx

[mooglimoo]

My version of shhh/pat was to pat his chest, as long as you're not patting to hard I think it's ok?!

I've had to work and work at getting my lad to self soothe and he can usually do it but not always. One thing that helped me was to learn the difference between his 'mantra cry' and his real cry so I didn't intervene too early. I don't think what you were doing was CC as long as you are responding to real cries when your LO actually needs your intervention.

Also do you swaddle you baby? This really helped my lad to sleep even though he would protest ALOT when we first swaddled him, it soon helped to calm him. It's just a bummer we can't use it now because he can roll over these days and prefers to run laps around his cot instead!!

I've had alot of funny looks from friends and family when I've talked about naps and routine and have often been told to just keep him up during the day to tire him out etc but once you've read the books it's hard to go back because they make such good sense?! It helped that my DH read the books too (or at least the most important bits I pointed out to him!) so that he understood too and we were both singing from the same hymn sheet.

Hope all is going well, this is such a supportive place, I'm sure you'll get the advice you need to help,
Lorna x

[mooglimoo]

Was just thinking, I also started to use white noise to help DS sleep when his naps went askew. At first I used a hairdryer!! Now I leave a fan on in the room- might this help??

[Tweakster]

Prupants everyone tells me to stay off the internet lol  But you know, we need people who have been there and back again and understand just how hard it is.  People who understand that we want the best for our babes and to know that we are not alone.  So you do what you need to do to get through this.  If it means reading every thread on this forum to get the help you need then so be it :-)  You are a mama bear doing the best for her cub.

I think you can pat him however he needs it.  If it's his bum, tummy, back whatever soothes him.  You can rub or just apply pressure.  The important thing is that he knows you are there helping him, teaching him. 

I agree with pp about the mantra vs. cry that needs intervention.  Lately DS has been waking mid-nap with a cry but he now seems to go back down himself (not every time but getting better).  I have stopped rushing in and just seeing where it goes.  I think you have to make that judgment call.  If you think the cry is one that he won't recover from, you should get in there.  In the beginning i.e. at 12 weeks I had to be there for most naps.  It's a big commitment but one that will pay off a few weeks down the road (although it doesn't always feel like it when you are sitting there in the dark all day!).  Unfortunately you have to not see it as being 'trapped' in there but rather a means to an end.  You are gaining each time you reinforce it.

It's also not a wrong tact to get help to do this i.e. let DH help out and relax a bit for a day.  You can get back at it again tomorrow.  Enjoy your son - he's only 13 weeks once.  He'll be 14 weeks and then it's a whole new ballgame.

Try some white noise, we still use it for naps, it does help with certain temperaments. 

[prupants]

Thanks guys,

Today started off really well (1.5 hour nap- little cry out at 30mins but went back out)
second nap the dooooom began 30 mins and v OT, this threw everything off again and by the end of the day Charlie was in bed early with no last feed (noooo!) do I cluster and DF top up or do I see if he makes it to DF? his feeding has been terrible today too.
I still seem to have all this weird time at the end of the day where he just can't stay awake and I need him to wait for a feed - if I give it early he goes all squirmy and hardly takes any! Do I bring back the cat nap and reduce naps in day??

My routine is posted on the EASY forum on 2 diff posts, anyone got any advice on how to make it work better???

thanks xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 

[~ Vik ~]

Hi! Going to look for your EASY post now... Hopefully ds will stay asleep long enough for me to have a read!