5 month old tired...screaming to sleep/wont sleep

[kels]

my son is 6 months on 23rd of july. he is not napping in day much and screaming at night going to bed for up to an hour! and i mean screaming, we wakes frequently for a night feed and settling back to sleep and wakes if sleeps in pram when out every 20-30 mins or so. i have tried everything,dummie-doesnt like! shush/pat,rocking, steeling alone with us in room, leaving him a bit and this continues, he drinks 4 oz of milk everry 4 hours and is on 3 meals a day nad doesnt eat loads of that. he winges and moans in day rubbing eyes,clearly tired. what can i do???

[anna*]

It sounds like he could be overtired. Can you write out what your routine looks like, like this?

E (eat): What time, how much
A (activity): How long
S (sleep): What time and for how long

Start from when your day starts, and go through the whole day. This is a tough age for naps, but we'll help you through it.

[kels]

he wakes at 7 ish.
E-bottle at 730,solids at 8am
A- playing till start to rub eyes 9am ish
S- nap in cot as long as wants any time from 30 mins-2hrs

A-11am
E-bottle at 12am,solids at 1300pm
S- usually out in pram as doesnt go down easy in cot,may nap for 20-30 mins
A- out in pram or back at home
S-1500-try to get to sleep again in pram,not usually succsessful.

E-bottle at 4pm,solids at 5pm usually
A- till bed time
S-bed time aftert bath at 1830-bed at 1900


sorry if this doesnt read well, wasnt sure how to do it. we currently just finished a sleep programme and he is worse as result. screaming to sleep. we did this programme as he wasnt even sleeping in cot only in pram in day or on the couch with us or our bed!!!
he doesnt drink alot of his bottles and sometimes not even his meals and is on/off moaning in the day i believe he is always tired and this is very upsetting.
he has a bottle in the night and he drinks all this bottle

[anna*]

Do you mind telling a bit more about the sleep programme you finished?

I think you're right, and he's really overtired. The normal awake time for 5 months old is about 2 hours, maybe a touch more, but that is TOTAL awake time. So from a 7am start, he would need to be asleep by 9am - not just heading to the nursery to start putting him down. Also, because he is so overtired, I would try putting him down earlier for his first nap, maybe put him down by 8.45am. If he has a short nap (1.5hrs or less), he'll need an even shorter A time before his next nap.

What do you think?

Is there anything else? 3 meals a day of solids is a lot for such a young one, any chance you could cut out one of the meals and maybe fill him up on milk? When did you last try shush-pat, what happened? Have you tried PUPD with him?

((((hugs)))) don't worry we'll help you figure this out.

[kels]

i have today just followed my instincts, every 2 hrs he like clock work rubs his eyes and i have put himn in cot and after a little cry he goes off, 2 hrs this morning 0830-1030 after having bottle an hr before. then this afternoon had bottle/lunch slept for 2 hrs and a bit over 1245-1450. then we went out and he slept in pram for 45 mins late afternoon 1655-1740 had bottle before that. then he had another bottle and dinner after waking around 1800. played and rubbed eyes and was in bed at 2000 and cried a little harder than in day for naps but stayed asleep, its now 2300 so i see how night goes.
this is the first time i have given all naps in cot as was advised to make sure he slept in day to avoid over tiredness even if that meant in pram as this was all he did at one point.
i do shush/pat him to sleep and when he wakes and sometimes this makes him more angry sometimes not.picking him up the same,but dont tend to do that as find he cries harder when put down again.
the programme i was on was a sleep programme a step by step guide to help him stop the need for rocking/motion to sleep that he seemed to have as he only slept in pram although not long periods and at night used to sleep with us or on couch! we tried rocking to sleep then putting in cot then putting in cot and calming by shush/pat and thats were we are now. and i abandoned the programme as i felt i was not being listened too and so we did it our way like today and decided to put him in cot for ll naps when possible.
although before colic he wasnt to bad, and at mo he is on/off teething.
my husband thinks we should try putting him down just before the 2 hr mark as you suggested and tonight i think i was 15 mins or so late getting him down.
today he has had lunch and dinner only as hubbie thought he looked to tired this morning for breakfast and we are not sure wether to leave after bottles or give directly after? as he doesnt drink alot unless in night then drinks 7 oz 210mls, in day around 3-4oz bottles.
he hasnt been grissly in day today at all.and only rubbed eyes when tired and then went down for naps

[anna*]

It sounds like you are doing great! I would always give milk first, and then do solids about an hour later. He needs milk more than he needs solids at this age, so if you give solids first he won't be hungry for milk.

[kels]

yes i agree, i find what works best is giving him solids right after milk, if i leave to soon he doenst take much of next milk feed.

[kels]

last night he woke at 2230 and 0310, drank 200ml both times! he never drinks this much in day?!!!!!

[anna*]

When you feed in the daytime, can you try feeding in a very dark, quiet room? It may be that he is just too distracted to concentrate on feeding. When my LO was this age I would feed in his darkened nursery when he woke up after naps and was still relaxed and drowsy.

[kels]

i can try but if he doesnt want it, he womnt take it and with solids he really struggles. he started off well though. i think this may be reason why he doesnt sleep through night

[anna*]

It's very normal for them not to sleep through the night at this age, so I wouldn't worry about that too much if he's only waking twice. You could do a dreamfeed at around 10pm before he wakes, and then go to bed yourself, so that you only get woken once.

The main thing is to make sure that he is getting enough sleep. If you think it's mainly a feeding issue, I think maybe a post on the bottle feeding board would be good, because I really don't know anything about bottle feeding. But it does sound like he could be overtired too...

What do you think?

[kels]

ok, i post on there. i do think its weird that he drinks more in night than day though dont you? you cant dream feed him, he goes mental if woken! and wont drink unless he wants too. he does drink better when sleepy though but isnt due his feeds when he wakes,usually he feeds every 4-5 hrs.i feel sometimes like i dont no what im doing!!!!

[anna*]

(((((((hugs)))))))) it's really hard, knowing what to do for the best with our LOs.

I know you'll get some great advice on the bottle feeding board. It sounds like he's making up the calories he needs during the night. For the dreamfeed, you don't wake him! Will he not just take a bottle in his sleep, if it's near the time he would usually wake?

How are the naps going? Are you still trying shush-pat?

[kels]

i understand but i think if i get him out cot to dream feed he will screamand wont take it, and he wakes at 2230 usually and then 3 or 4am, or wakes at 1 or 2am then wakes as normal at 7, so i dont no if i will realluy benefit as he will wake anyway if you see what i mean.

the day naps are ok, we shsuh/pat him in day and he slept 2 hrs again in morning and 2 hrs in afternoon, he started rubbing eyes  at 6pm and he usally goes dwon at 7pm, so i though argh!!! what do i do,routine or what i think best at time. so i took him up and he wasnt having it, brought him down and was ok for 1 hr then bathed him took him upstairs at 645 and he played up when i was putting his babygrow on and i swear he knew! then  OH came in to take over as i went to gym and he said he screamed for an hr!!!! i dont no where we are going wrong. its as if we can never get any kind of routine going and he gets so upset at bedtime

[anna*]

Can you try the dreamfeed and see what happens?

At 5 months old he probably still needs 3 naps per day, 2 long ones and a short one. You could try something like this for a couple of days:

7am awake
9am asleep (so need to start settling him to sleep before this) - nap 2 hrs
11am awake
1pm asleep (as above) - nap 2 hrs
3pm awake
5pm asleep (as above) - catnap 30-45 mins
5.45pm awake
6.30pm bath routine, bottle
7pm asleep
10.15pm dreamfeed.