Author Topic: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!  (Read 6593 times)

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Offline annette.xx

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milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« on: October 07, 2009, 09:26:14 am »
Hi all

had numerous problems with DD over her 8 month life and last week thought id figured out the problem ...now im not so sure... here is a rundown to make sense!!;

she is 8 months

exclusively BF

9th percentile for weight...followed line no weight loss

extreme colic as baby until 5 months (10 hr screaming sessions)

suspected reflux - never medicated

started solids at 6 months

before solids stools very loose and explosive (4 - 5 a day)

after solids introduction stools a paste still on the loose side (2 - 3 a day)

always been a greeny colour - varied from bright to khaki

after solids sometimes get a orangy brown (I assume this is how it should look) but still more often than not green.

frothy looking kind of whippy looking poos every few days

sometimes give formula in sippy once a day... everytime the following day stools are less frequent maybe just 1 then the day after she has explosion of khaki green whippy poo!! loads of it...

after BF she is sick about 10 mins later then after about 30 - 40 mins when I let her go down to play (keep her upright until then) she is usually sick 2 - 3 times over the next hour or so...not huge amounts but little puddles

sometimes she is sick what looks like a hell of a lot but not always

sick is generally clear kind of mucousy with white specks in it.

after solids she constantly burps and I hear it coming up and see her swallowing it back down (doesnt bother her too much) if she is on tummy when it happens she will let out a scream followed by sick

think she is teething but then she seems to be teething forever...

so thats all the backround ...thought it may help!! Im so unsure whether this is just normal and im being paranoid cos I know babies are sick and stuff... could all this just be normal and nothing to worry about if so I take it she will just grow out of it?

could it be reflux?...is it ok to just leave her be and it will eventually just sort itself out?

or MPI...I took her to docs suspecting this and he was very good and gave me a prescription for the special formula without the milk protein that causes allergy ...im trialing it and started today...she hated the taste wouldnt take it so I had to mix a little fruit puree with it (is this ok!)...im going to give her one cup of this a day and continue with BF morning and night and see if this makes a difference... then we will get an idea if the sickness is caused by MPI ...after I gave it this morning she was sick about 45 mins later but I guess the other milk could still be in her system?

Im worried that if she doesnt have an allergy to milk that she may develp one if I take away all milk products ...could this happen?

or could all of this be due to teething alone?

I really dont want to take away milk or medicate if its all in my head!!

so confused????? ???

Annette.xx


Offline *Jo*

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2009, 09:45:27 am »
Annette big HUGS to you, thats alot of stuff your little girl is going through from that list up there, it does sound very much like milk protein intolerance, its the same as how Caleb was before they changed his formula. His formula is disgusting as well but he drinks it no problem because it doesnt hurt his tummy. He also has reflux and is now medicated.

What formula are you giving her now? yes it will take a couple of days for the old stuff to get out of her system, at least thats how it was for us, took about three or four days.

Can i suggest you go to another Dr until you get Jasmine medicated for the reflux??





Offline lilisuze

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 09:45:54 am »
hi annette and HUGS! This is such a hard path to travel. We did almost exactly the same as you, and your story sounds just about right for MPI. If it was reflux, things should be calming down around now.

The thing that rings a big bell with me in your story is the way the sick is, delayed by up to a couple of hours post feed and little puddles of it (i guess about 10ml each time?). Thats what my lo did, and the best decsion we ever made was to make the switch to soya milk. (BTW some babies are also intolerant to soy!) after we made the switch a couple of weeks later (yes it can take that long for the milk to get out of their little systems) he stopped being sick, stopped screaming in the evening, started STTN. Woop!

Now we are on the other end and trying to go back to milk, but without much success yet...he has just puddled some sick in the pushcahir after a biscuit with skimmed milk powder in :o

So, you are going to need to give the formula a try for a good few days, and I'm not sure about the BF's (sure someone with know how will be along in a bit) because stopping you eating dairy is an option.
Also dont give baby foods with cheese/milk in. If you use jars they are hard to come by but they do make them, and if you home make or BLW then stick with veg and chicken/meat products for now.

HTH

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Offline Adaias mom

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 09:50:22 am »
Do you have dairy in your diet? I am by no means no expert but if she has a MPI, i thought you would get the projectile vomit everytime she has milk. I may be wrong though.

It sounds alot like reflux to me. My lo has silent reflux and had almost exact same symptoms. Has it improved with solids? The solid food should give more substance to whats in her tummy and keep the acid down and stop the wet burps, or at least help them. I still get a little bit but nothing like it was before the solids.

With her being BF she will poop alot more, as it is digested so much easier, and it make sense for your lo to poop less on formula as its not so easily digested. When i did the breast milk to formula switch, my lo only pooed every 3 - 4 days!!! This was green and like thick peanut butter! I took her to the docs and was assured its normal! I didn't think so but never did her any harm. Now on solids she has a poop at least once a day and colour varies from green, to brown, to light brown to orange depending on food!

I wouldn't be so hard on yourself though, i wouldn't say its all in your head, but if your lo isn't bothered by it, and is still feeding well, then IMO i wouldn't medicate as she will eventually grow out of it. (Thats if its is reflux and not MPI)

Sorry i can't be more help, as i am no expert, and i am sure you'll get some more advice, but if your lo is gaining weight, and eating and sleeping well then i wouldn't worry too much. For the reflux with my lo i never medicated as the thickened formula helped enough then had early introduction of solids which helped no end. Have you tried just for 3 days removing all dairy and see if it makes a difference? I know it will be really hard for you and your lo just basically living on meat fruit and veg but it won't harm your lo and 3 days should be enough for you to see a difference. Then if there is a big difference, introduce things back slowly and see if you can pinpoint the problem if there is one. What do you think?
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Offline *Jo*

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 09:58:19 am »
Adaias mom - theres not always projectile vomit with MPI :)

Caleb has MPI and the only way we found out was he was a really bad eater and developed an intolerance to feeding and started refusing and screaming when he saw the bottle 9this was the extreme end of it) etc but mixed wiht reflux made it hard to decipher the MPI as well, once we went to the hospital and was admitted for three days (they didnt think there was an issue at first as he was sleeping really well at night and there was no weight loss at all he was still thriving) they changed his formula and saw an improvement instantly, not much but he would at least drink the bottle.

We havent looked back since in regards to his formula.

From what i know of Annette there are quite a few sleep issues going on though.





Offline Mashi

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 12:53:12 pm »
Hi Annette

Your story does echo mine, as well. Only I gave up the BFing completely at about 3 weeks because I couldn't handle being vomited on 7 times a day.  On formula it just meant that DH and I shared the vomit!!  Poops were a nightmare, absolute nightmare.  When you describe them as frothy and whippy, to me it sends up a red flag as that is NOT normal.  My advice, as yuck as it is, is to start taking pictures.  It was one of the only ways that I got a good diagnosis from the paed - and he was thankful for the photos and said he wished every parent did that, as descriptions can't do what a photo can!   

My LO also had "suspected" reflux, although when medicated it didn't really go away - the one thing they gave him that did help him stop puking actually made his poops worse, and it was because his puking was a way of getting the milk OUT of him, but by us forcing it to stay IN, he had nightmare poops. 

What formula are you on? Is it Nutramigen or Neocate?  Is your GP sending you to a paed/gastro doc for further discussions or clinical diagnosis or support? I would request it, unless your GP is very confident and comfortable with these kinds of problems. I know most GPs aren't mainly because they are not specialists. Our hospital paed didn't really "do" anything but he was a wealth of information that I couldn't have learned from my GP. 

I am of two minds with the BFing.  I had always read on BW that if you were BFing an MPI baby, you needed to eliminate all dairy from your own diet, however, I have a friend who has an MPI baby and she was okay BFing him, as long as she kept her dairy intake very low. May be something you want to think about. She got her LO onto Nutramigen and kept only her morning and night BF and cut most dairy out of her diet and her LO was okay while she weaned those last two feeds.   But, there are BW mothers here who have breastfed MPI babies who can't have a sniff of cheese or their LO will react - I think it depends on a lot of different factors.   As I didn't BF I don't know how you would decide how much dairy you needed to cut out.  BUT if you have her on the hydrolysed formula and she is still acting as above, then I would think you would need to either eliminate dairy from your own diet or stop BFing if you find that too difficult (I know for me  I am very dairy dependent, there is no way I could survive dairy free, I would not be able to consume enough calories to keep milk supply up!!)

With how long it takes to get the milk out of her system -- you should notice a fair improvement within a few days to a week, but again if you are continuing to BF and consume dairy yourself, then you may not notice large improvements.  And then, once she is completely dairy free, the "rule of thumb" that our paed told me to go by is half as long as she was on the dairy for.  So, in our case DS was on some form of dairy until he was 5 months, so he told us it could take up to 2.5 months to see a full recovery. And, sure enough, I would say it was about 7 months before things were totally cleared up.

You asked if she could develop an allergy by keeping her dairy free, and the answer is no.  Absolutely not.  Quite often humans (adults and babies!) do get a temporary lactose intolerance from prolonged periods without consuming milk, but this isn't any concern, really, as it's not a true lactose intolerance, it's just the body needing to remember how to break down the lactose, rather than the body not possessing the capabilities of doing so.  And, on the flip side, if she is milk allergic/intolerant then continuing to give her milk/dairy is not going to help her learn how to tolerate it or break down her allergy, you can actually cause her more problems by continuing when she should be off of it.

As for the adding fruit puree to the milk...I'm not 100% sure about that. I would be more inclined to express some BM and mix it with the formula than add the fruit. My son went from milk formula onto soy formula (turned out to be soy allergic as well) and so when we switched to the Nutramigen it took about a full month of mixing the soy and Nutramigen to get him to drink the Nutramigen. I know some moms have done it with EBM as well, but if you are not used to pumping or don't have the supply I'm not sure if you would be able to? Sorry, my BFing knowledge is limited to what I read here on BW.  We started with mixing the soy and Nutramigen by just adding a couple of ounces of the nasty Nutramigen, and every 3 or 4 days one ounce less of soy and one extra ounce of Nutramigen.

Not sure what else to add.....had to go check on DS so I sort of lost my train of thought. Let me know if you have any more questions, there are lots of us here who have been through this!!!


Offline MLK

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 14:15:03 pm »
MY LO has MSPI and had reflux, what you describe sounds very familiar to me, especially the green frothy poos! IF you are BF you can also go on a dairy and soy free diet, because the proteins come out in BM. IT also depends on her tolerance threshold - i.e. how sensitive she is to dairy. I've only just started eating dairy again after a year! If she is milk intolerant, you would expect to see an improvement from 3 days up to about 14 days after the milk proteins are removed (either through the formula or your diet restriction), my doc said it can be up to 6-8 weeks for the gullet to heal if the reflux was caused by MSPI.

IF you really want to be sure it's the milk you can try a challenge of dairy once her symptoms have gone - if the symptoms come back you can be pretty sure it was the dairy.

Offline annette.xx

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 14:30:47 pm »
OMG...im so touched by the amount of info you ladies have given me...soooo grateful...you are all amazing!!

 :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

the formula ive been given is nutramigan...she hates it....spat it out all over kitchen floor!!...think I may have to follow your suggestion mashimaro and mix EBM with it until she will take it...Im going to try expressing tonight at the time I used to do DF and see if I can get enough!! if not I will just keep pumping a bit whenever I can and wait to give the formula until I have enough to mix it up!!

actually very strange thing happened today...I gave her normal organic porridge and mixed it with the new formula and she went down for her am nap without even one cry...not even a whimper...nothing... :o probably coincidence??!!

Adaias mum - I will definately try 3 days with no dairy whatsoever and see if that has an added impact... your right it is sooo hard giving up dairy tho... cant start today cos the cheesecake in the fridge is calling me and it would just be soooo wrong not to eat it!!!! ive got to have one last dairy treat!!!! ;D...

lilsuze - yeah it is about 10ml a time!! about 3 - 4 times between feeds so total of at least 16 sicks a day (on a good day!!)

calebs mummy - I never realised you too had this problem... thats great that we will be able to share info as our LOs are the same age! Think I will stick this docter out for a bit to see if he can build up a full picture himself (I have developed a major fear of drs since a bad experience with awful one at 4 months and this dr didnt make me cry so thats got to be progress for me!!) once ive done trial with formula and removing dairy if sick is still the same after a couple of months I will re assess and make them look into it more definately!!

mashimaro - we do seem to have alot in common!! you know my history now (PND) and It actually feels so releiving to think it might not all be in my head - thought I was the worst mum in the world - seriously when you have a baby you dont expect it to cry 10 hrs a day for months on end, even the ILs were starting to question my skills as a mum - how many times have I heard MIL say ''pass her here'' when she used to cry as if she would be able to calm her properly (it never worked!!  ::)).
the idea of pictures is an excellent idea...im going to start doing that from now on!! I may ask next time if I can see a paed think it may be helpful...I always get the feeling that docs just dont have time to be seeing babies!!
you said about the mixing of the soy formula with the nutramigin - if I find it hard going with the pumping do you think maybe I should mix her normal formula with it until its just the nutramigen?...I suppose its better to get them taking the milk then creating an aversion to it...I know my Jasmine is just sooo fussy if she has it a few times and doesnt like it she will end up never wanting it!!

MLK - a year without dairy!! how hard was it?...thats a great idea about the dairy challenge...think I will stop eating dairy myself and give her the nutramigen and bf and only homemade dairy and soy free foods and then if all is well after a few wks then I will eat my favourite cheesecake and see if it makes a difference!! LOL...any excuse!!!

so as you can see ladies I have got so much out of your responses its really helped...im sure there will be loads of questions I have so its great to have you all here!! thankyou so much. :-*

I feel a bit guilty now cos I remember a couple of times when there was blood in her poops...just a little but when I asked HV about it she said it was most probably my blood from bf or from her gums etc.. and that its normal...it only happened about twice and separate occassions so I never worried - do you think it could be linked to this?

Annette.xx
 


Offline annette.xx

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 14:57:51 pm »
OMG...second day of no dairy and her naps have been 1 hr 20 mins and 1 hr 45 so far!! Calebs mummy you will know from all my nap problems this is a miracle...

could it be coincidence?...Im debating eating that cheesecake later now cos ive barely had any dairy last 2 days just incase and done want to ruin things!!

so shocked... :o

Annette.xx

Offline *Liz*

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 14:59:28 pm »
Annette - I haven't read all of this through but just had a thought - hope someone hasn't said it already though  :-\.

We tried to switch J to neocate at 7 mths due to reflux and suspected MPI. I *tried* to fully dairy exclude but was finding it really very hard and was losing weight quite dramatically, so my doctor recommended that I should move away from BFing.

Jacob WOULD NOT take neocate. I spent weeks and weeks pumping and diluting the formula with EBM, increasing by just 0.5oz every few days. I managed to get all the way to 4oz neocate and 1oz EBM, and just couldn't go any lower. In the end I tried just stopping and doing full forumla but ended up with a 3 day complete food strike. So I gave a normal formula and the poor chap drank it all.

My paediatrician says it can be very hard with older babies, especially those who are weaned, as they know full well that the milk is very bitter and strange tasting. He felt, in our case, that forcing him onto the formula would do more harm than good and that he should just have the reflux medicated and move to soy milk at 12 mths if the MPI didn't settle. So that is what we did, but at about 11 mths he started being able to tolerate a little fromage frais, so we never went this route.

That said I know plenty of mums who have been successful with the dilution route, and even some who just gave it straight off with no issues. But Jacob just wouldn't take it. I think most likely because he had lots of feeding aversions at that age and was more than happy to just not eat if something wasn't right. That was what he had been doing his whole life anyway. And I think his food aversion was the main reason the paediatrician felt we shouldn't be forcing a food he hated. I guess as long as your lo is motivated by food everything should be absolutely fine.

I feel bad for writing this now as I guess it comes across as negative - but really I just wanted to tell you what route we ended up going down. It frustrated me for quite a while knowing he was drinking something that was bad for him, but at 11mths when he started to outgrow the MPI, he just got got so much better.

Sending lots of ((hugs)) to you both.

Oh - and bloody stools CAN be linked to MPI - but it would usually be often and quite a bit of the colon was involved. Blood in stools can be due to constipation and getting little splits in the skin. That often happened to my little man - made me so sad that he could get into so much pain.

Offline Mashi

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 18:11:40 pm »
Liz, I knew you'd had a hard time with J and the reflux/MPI but I never knew all of the details...sounds like it was a total nightmare ((hugs)) Neocate is way more disgusting and more foul than Nutramigen. Which is pretty hard because that first whiff of Nutramigen nearly knocked me over; DH and I used to threaten each other ("Fold the laundry, or I'll make you smell the Nutramigen!!"  ::) )   I think it is much harder to get a baby used to Neocate, especially without going through the Nutramigen first!

Offline *Liz*

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 18:20:36 pm »
Thanks Mash - thankfully those days are behind us now  :).

My paed refused to let J try nutramigen as he said it lasted even worse. Can't say I agreed though - to me nutramigen tasted very 'earthy' - whereas neocate tasted like a chemical form of mouldy broccoli juice (a friends baby takes nutramigen). Yuk!!

Offline Spectra

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 18:43:42 pm »
Wow, lots of advice and support, loving it!  I'm just here to offer hugs, and say, "stay away from the cheesecake!" lol  You have already two days in.  I would really stick it out to know 100 percent sure that this is a dairy issue.  I hope it continues to get better!
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Offline *Jo*

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 19:24:41 pm »
Ohmygosh! Annette, cant beleive you got those good naps in!! it sounds VERY promising, i cant wait to hear more progress!!!!!!

Caleb is on Pepti Junior and that stuff is horrid too but he takes it and im not argueing with him!!!! LOL





Offline MLK

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Re: milk allergy, reflux, teething or mummy paranoia!!
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 09:32:21 am »
Annette, it was hard being o nthe dairy free diet but the first couple of weeks were the hardest. HWnever  Ifelt like giving in  Ithought about all those NWs and it motivated me! After a while the diet just became a way of life. I still cook a lot that way because even though  Ican take dairy now DS2 is still MSPI, so I have to cook for him. At least I am used to it now!

And it sounds like you are havign some good results - yay! Stick it out for 14 days if you can before doing a challenge, that way you'll have more of an idea. There are lots of recipes in the sticky at the top of the page so you don't have to be deprived! If you're desperate for a biscuit and don't want to cook I know McVities original digestive biscuits are dairy and soy free. Boring but kind of satisfying!