6 month old waking twice during the night

[alexvonw]

Hi there,

I'm sure this question has been answered before but I've trawled the forums and just don't have time to keep looking...anyway, every kid is different, so every answer will be different, I guess.

There are actually 2 related problems: 1) Learning to self-settle, which we're working on during the day and 2) Waking 2 times (occasionally more) between 1 am and 6am to feed.

I will try and give all the required info now:
My son is 24 weeks old and breastfed.

What’s his/her daily routine?
He wakes between 6 and 7am.
7am: breastfeed (normally only takes one side at any feed, very occasionally two)
Activity time until
8.30am: start to settle in cot
8.45am: he's normally asleep by this stage. I'm using a kind of combination of p/u p/d, shush pat and controlled crying (I do think it's slowly working). Basically, I put him in the cot with a kiss and leave the room. He might be quiet for a while or start right away, but inevitably he starts grizzling which then ramps up to proper crying. This is normally about 4 to 5 mins after I left the room. Once I'm sure it's crying and not just grizzling, I go back in, give him a cuddle until he calms down (takes about 30 seconds these days), then put him in his bed. If he's relaxed enough, he'll roll onto his side and I will pat his bum for a minute or so. When I see his eyes starting to close or his breathing changes, I pat slower and softer until stopping and then leave the room. Sometimes this doesn't work and he starts crying when I put him in the cot, so I pick him up again.
He will then sleep for 30 minutes to 2 hours. Very unpredictable, sometimes I can get him to resettle (using same method as above) but sometimes I can't or I don't try because his older sister wants to go out, so I need to get him up any way.
10am: Feed - he normally is done in about 10 minutes or less
Activity time until approx. 1.5 hours after he woke up. Obviously this can vary a lot depending upon when he woke up. Sometimes is gets stretched out to over 2 hours if we are out and about, but often he falls asleep in the carseat or stroller at around the 1.5 hour mark anyway.
11.30am or so: Goes down for another nap, using same method as above. Normally sleeps longer at this time but no garantees.
1pm to 2pm: feed (depending upon how long the nap was)
activity time until he's been up for 1.5 hours - he gets really cranky around the 1.25 hour mark, so I'm sure he needs a nap after being up for 1.5 to 2 hours.
3pm or so: nap time, as above. Maybe 30 minutes to 2 hours. I don't let him sleep past 5.30pm.
4pm: Ideally he will feed at this time, but depends upon the nap.
Activity time until about 5.30pm.
Then he's really cranky but he can't have a nap so close to bed time, so this is when we start seriously distracting him.
6pm: bath time.
6.30pm: feed.
7pm: bed.

I would like to have a more solid routine but it's hard because he's sleep times are so unpredictable, and also since I've got a toddler too, it's hard to stick strictly to such a routine. He normally sleeps for a total of 3 to 3.5 hours during the day. Sometimes it's less and sometimes more but not too much variation.

How many wakes per night?
I do a dreamfeed when I'm ready to go to bed around 11pm or anytime after 10pm if he's woken up by himself. Then he will sleep until 1.30am or so, when he wakes and I feed him, then sleep until 4am or so, when he wakes and I feed him again, then he will normally sleep in to about 7am (but no garantees). Sometimes he only wakes at 3am (then I'm so happy!) and again around 6am, in which case we just get up.

What’s your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up?
He cries and is quite hard for me to settle. Sometimes my husband tries and has more luck but sometimes not and I'll wind up going in to feed him. Generally, in the middle of the night it's just easier and quicker to feed him, so that's what I do so I can get some sleep. But I would like it to stop! I think he's kind of hungry, he always feeds pretty well during the night and again at 7am, but at the same time I'm sure that at 6 months of age he doesn't NEED 2 feeds btw midnight and 6am.

When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry?
It seems like proper crying but I'm so sleepy it's hard to tell! I'm on autopilot! Also, I don't really know what a mantra cry is exactly...

What have you tried to settle??
Generally, we would pick him and cuddle a bit until calm and then put in bed and pat on the bum (as described for naps above), but this only works about 20% of the time...

What do you do for A time and how long is it?
Activity time is about 1.5 hours in total each time. He normally lies on his playmat for a while, then goes in the activity centre for a while, then gets carried around a bit, then back on the mat, we might go out for a walk, he might sit i the bumbo seat and watch me do housework for a while.

Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?
I don't think so. He's not a very chubby baby. it does make me wonder if he's getting enough of the hind milk, because he's a pretty fast feeder. But his sister was also a rather lean baby and a fast feeder and had no sleep problems.

Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months)
My pediatrician recommended starting with carrots, so we started them 3 days ago. He really doesn't like them! I will try rice cereal tomorrow and see how that goes. I thought if he started solids he might be a bit fuller and sleep better but he's not eaten more than a teaspoon each time yet.

Do they have a prop? If so what is it?
It used to be me (boob) and being jiggled to sleep in my arms, but now there's not much of that going on and he might rely on being patted on the bum to get relaxed but it's normally stopped before he falls asleep.

Do they have a lovie?
Yes, he has a velvet cloth with a teddy bear's head on it and he chews/sucks on the cloth or the bear's ears when he's trying to relax.

I hope that's all the info that is needed to help us. I just want him to stop waking up twice in the night. I could deal with once a night.

Also, I hope that what I'm doing to teach him to settle is working. It does seem to be getting quicker all the time. I couldn't do p/u p/d because he would just look at me and get so mad! But if he cries for just a bit longer, then it's like it tires him out just enough to make him realise he wants to sleep. Does anyone have any experience using a method like mine? Does it sound OK?

[ryates71]

Hi there,

I'm no expert as my 6 month old will tell you but I think your first A time is failry short.  Usual for this age is 2hr15 to 2hr30, and I think my LO is stretching this longer again now.  This might be why you have such a battle getting him down as really he's not quite ready for it.  You could try stretching the A time a bit in the morning and see if that helps.  Because of the short A times in the morning you have a really long A time in the afternoon after his 3rd sleep.  You should really be aiming for his first 2 sleeps to be longer then a catnap late afternoon.  I find I only usually get one longer sleep (and that is with resettling on the 45 mins mark).

Hope this helps,
Rachel

[alexvonw]

Thanks for the advice.

I have just put him in his bed for his morning nap, 2 hours after he woke up, so that is a little bit longer than normal.

He always gets really grizzly around the 1 hour 15 minutes mark, so it is quite hard keeping him up longer than 1.5 hours, but it's not too bad if we have errands to run. Well, then the problem is that he might fall asleep in the stroller....

He is in bed now and crying a bit but I think it is just a mantra cry. He doesn't really sound very upset and there are pauses in the crying.

We had a terrible night last night. He woke up at 10.23pm, so I fed him. Then I would normally expect him to last until at least 1.30am, but he woke up at 12.49am. We tried to get him back to sleep but at 1.30am I gave up and fed him. He went back down OK, but then woke up at 2.30am! Tried to settle him for an hour, eventually decided that maybe he's teething and gave him some paracetamol. Then I have to admit I actually let him cry for a little bit and fell asleep myself. At 4.20am I checked on him and he was fine and slept until 6.42am. So he's shown me that he can go fairly long stretches in the night without a feed, but he keeps waking up and is so hard to re-settle. I don't want to resort to paracetamol all the time! And that may have had no effect anyway, he might just have gotten tired again!

Hopefully, increasing his A time in the morning and a bit in the middle of the day will have some results...generally I've been reluctant to do this as he already seems grumpy and I really want to avoid OT - but maybe I've been too paranoid about the OT monster!

The thing is that he has never slept well through the night. First off he was really colicky and gas would keep up heaps in the night. Then even when he outgrew that around 4months, he would still wake every 2 hours for a feed and I was so tired that I just took the path of least resistance. In the last month or 2 we've been more proactive about stretching out his feeds during the day and it seemed he was down to only one night waking around 3am, but this only lasted a week or so. Very frustrating!

[luv2swimbikerun]

HI

I was interested in your topic cuz my boy is nearing 6 months and wanted to see what was up.

I did notice that you have your lo on a three hour feeding cycle. From what I've read in BW and what I'm doing is that a 6 month old should be on a 4 hour routine.

Not sure if that will help, but something to consider.

My boy used to wake up too in the middle of the night because he was used to being fed. I cut that feed out about a week ago now. He's getting BM and is on solids so I know he's getting lots to eat during the day. So it was just a matter of doing PU/PD when he would wake and cry at night. And it worked.

He also didn't like carrots on there own at first, so I mixed it in with some rice cereal and then by the third day he could eat carrots on there own no problem.

Viviana

[cameron09]

I just had to reply to your post, because my LO sounds exactly the same.  He too was colicky and gassy and I fed him whenever he woke because his cries were sooo demanding.  He has always woke up 2-3 times in the night (incl the DF which never worked either).  I tried holding him off in the past, but always caved after about 15 minutes of crying in the night as I felt I would get no where and selfishly it was easier to feed and get back to bed.

However, just in the last week I got the guts to stop NF.  He is now 6 months, on a 4 hr EASY (which I agree would be a good place for you to start) and started solids for 2 weeks now.  I do the DF but did not feed him one night at 3:30 - he cried on/off until 6am the first night.  I sat by him the whole time and shushed him (no pat as I find it's too stimulating for him now).  Truthfully, I thought it did not work well and it was exhausting.   However, on night 2 it took 1 hr and night 3 it took only 5 min at 1 NW and night 5 he STTN (from the DF on)!

I find PU/PD aggravates him too.  I only go in his room if he is really crying - not if he is grizzling on/off. 
I really tank him up during the day so I know he doesn't need the calories at night.  Feeding at night was just a habit for him.

It's scary to stop the NF, but I think they learn faster than we think they will.

Good luck.

[alexvonw]

Thanks for the advice so far.

I'm trying to get him onto a 4 hour EASY - believe it or not, a month ago he was feeding every 2 hours or more frequently, he was a real snacker! The only problem with the 4 hour EASY is I wind up wondering if he's 'tanked up' enough at night. Anyway, some days he makes it easy for me (hahaha) and other days its all I can do to get him to three hours.

I hope that once the solids are really a good part of his diet he will wake up less often anyway, and then I will do more work on getting him to sleep through the night. We'll probably start on Friday night, as it's too disruptive for my husband during the week. Fingers crossed it will not be as bad as we fear!

I'm really hoping to get this all sorted out by Christmas as we will be visiting family then and it wold be nice to be able to leave him with my parents for an evening and go out and not worry that he's waking up all night! Also, in January (possibly earlier) I am planning on going back to work, so he needs to be in a good routine by then and I need him to be STTN so I can function at work!

Thanks for the advice, I'll let you know how it goes.

[luv2swimbikerun]

Hi

I have a possible "silly" question. Being new to the BW message board I don't know a lot of the acronym's. Can some explain what STTN means and also when someone refer's to their lo as DD or DS?

Thank you!

Viviana

[alexvonw]

I don't know what's going on we had another terrible night last night.

I feed him heaps before putting him down at 7pm, although he had been on a 4 hour EASY yesterday, so maybe he hadn't had enough to eat...anyway, then he woke up at 8.50pm and I fed him because someone had mentioned doing cluster feeding at 9pm...then he took ages to settle, I keep thinking it's teething, so gave him some paracetamol liquid and then 5 minutes later he vomited everywhere! But he seemed a lot happier after that - so maybe he wasn't hungry he was overfull - who knows. So then he settled by 9.40pm...but woke up again at 11.40pm. Since he'd missed the dreamfeed and thrown up the 9pm feed I fed him again at 11.40pm. He took a while to settle, but not too bad.

Then he woke up and I fed him each time (we had decided not to actively do anything against the nightwaking until Friday night when my husband doesn't need to work the next day) and he was a bit tricky to settle each time too:
2.10am
3.45am
5.30am
and then he woke up for the day at 6.15am and I feed him his 'first' feed of the day at 7.20am.

So it's just getting worse. I think that either, he's just teething and/or going through a growth spurt and that this pattern won't last too long, or he's forgetting how to sleep without a full tummy. Either way, if it's a growth spurt I don't want him getting used to being fed 3+ times a night.

So on Friday night we will start p/u p/d etc during the night to discourage the night feeds. In the meantime, I am trying to increase his activity time and get him onto a 4 hour EASY and introduce more solids.

Anything else? I'm going slightly crazy here! It he is so unpredictable, nothing seems to work like it should. Or it does one day and then not the next.

[ryates71]

Poor you!  What a night.  Sending ((((Big HUGS)))).  I too am heading back to work in January and dreading the thought of crap nights and having to function the next day.

Sounds like he is using you (your boobs) to settle him self back to sleep, so PU/PD should work although it might seem really tough in the beginning.  When he cries in the night is it all out crying or more of a grizzling.  My LO has a cry which seems to be saying "Mummy I can't sleep" rather than "Ahhh, the end of the world is coming".  I know I pick him up far too often when it's "Mummy I can't sleep" and need to try leaving him a bit longer.  Check out the PU/PD board for more ideas.  If PU/PD is too stimulating for him you could try Walk In/Walk Out (WI/WO) or just sitting by the cot with you hand on him.  BUT you really need you hubby to be helping you as it is too much to cope with on your own - that's my downfall - my hubby leaves it all up to me :-(.  So make sure you talk it through and come up with a plan that you can both stick to.

Just think ... in a few years time you'll look back with fondness at these baby years ....!!!

[alexvonw]

Feeding has definitely become a prop, it's just gotten so much worse the last couple of days. i thought we were getting over it, but now he's terrible!

So far tonight he was fed at 7pm as per normal and then woke up at 9pm again! I thought I'd do the cluster feeding thing, try to tank him up, but he would not settle afterwards...now my first question is whether I should go ahead and do the dreamfeed like normal at 11pm, or just wait and see, if he goes to sleep how long he lasts for, or if I should start going cold turkey on the nightfeeds starting tonight.

It's only Wednesday night, so DH has to work tomorrow, and we just don't know what to do to try and get a bit more sleep...

Can someone tell me more about WI/WO? PU/PD just doesn't seem to work for DS or me! At 4am I almost always lose my resolve with PU/PD and wind up either feeding him again or rocking him to sleep, or if these two fail, which they have been lately, sometimes I can't do anything but just go to bed, put the pillow over my head and ignore him! I feel so terrible when this happens but it's the only way I can get some sleep (and invariably when I do wake up, DS has gone to sleep, but I was too zonked to notice when).

[alexvonw]

Oh, I forgot to say that we've tried a dummy/paci/soother a million times and he hates it! So frustrating because he loves sucking on his fingers or my clothes (how weird are babies!!??), so his little bear lovie thing will have to do :-)

He was mantra crying when I started writing my above post (had come in desperation to the board to see if anyone had made any new helpful comments), he got quite worked up and I was about to go back in to him when he stopped. Since then I've heard a few snuffles and that's it. I was out of the room for about 10 minutes...I think I accidentally did CIO...what should I do for the rest of the night? He's bound to wake up numerous times more...

[alexvonw]

Another similar night! I have no idea why he's waking up of much all of a sudden. We are definitely going to try to do something about it over the weekend. The question now is do we eliminate all nightfeeds cold turkey (except for the dreamfeed) or do we still allow him to have one feed around 3 or 4am?

[anna*]

Hi there! Sorry I'm just adding my input now, I wanted to let you know about PUPD. It's a great tool for weaning props. At this age, you do it like this:

Do your regular wind-down routine, put him in his cot. Wait until he's genuinely crying (not a mantra cry or a stop-start cry). Then pick him up, hold him for just a few seconds (long enough to say something like 'it's just sleep honey, you can do this'), then lay him back down again immediately. He will still be crying. Try for a moment to settle him in his cot, if he's not settling at all pick up and repeat. My LO would cry very hard, I would be thinking it would never work, then he would suddenly calm down and get himself off to sleep. The key is that he should become calm in his cot, not in your arms.

For naps, you do PUPD for 45 mins. If he's still not settling, you get him up, do a reduced next A time and start PUPD again for the next nap. At bedtime and for night wakings, you do it without a break until he sleeps.

I hope this helps.

[luv2swimbikerun]

Thank you Anna for describing how to do PU/PD,  I was doing it with my boy but not the way you described. If I need to do it again with him, I'll try your method.

Alex: is your lo on a 4 hour routine now?

Viviana

[alexvonw]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all the tips.

I'm not sure about doing PU/PD - I just don't know if we have the patience...but anyway, it's the weekend now, so we're going to give it a go.

Had a great day yesterday and a better night. Did the DF at 10.40pm, then he woke at 1am and for some reason I decided to feed him and he ate well, so maybe he was hungry. Then he woke again at 3.30am...it took him an hour to resettle and there were lots of tears, but he did resettle. We weren't really doing PU/PD, but he didn't fall asleep in our arms either... I think he just got tired. But then he slept until 6.30am, had a feed and then slept again until 7.20am. It's not perfect but at least he wasn't waking up every hour!!

Tonight I've given him lots and lots of baby rice cereal at 5.45pm and then a long BF at 7pm, so hopefully he's nice and tanked up :-)

He's pretty much on a 4 hour schedule now of milk feeds, plus a cereal feed for 'dinner'.

Can someone tell me more about WI/WO? It's just terrible when he's laying there crying at me and just looking at me, and he's not at all comforted by PU/PD, I feel I'm really making it worse by being there...picking him up so briefly does nothing...maybe I'm just not persevering enough.

Today wasn't so good as far as naps go. His first nap was good (1 hour 15 minutes), as it normally is. But his second nap was only 30 minutes and then he refused to go down for the third nap. I tried for about 50 minutes and then gave up because it was 5pm and really too late to be starting a nap (not that he looked like he was going to start anytime soon!). He was really resisting sleep even though he was clearly tired, particularly as his previous nap was only 30 minutes.

I'm thinking I really need to try and cut him down to 2 naps and try and make each of them longer...I can't really see how I schedule his E at the right time if he's eating 4 hourly and his A time is closer to 3 hours and he should sleep for 1.5 hours or so each nap. Can someone give me an example routine? Also what to do when his naps are too short?

I hope it's getting better but it could just be a fluke. He's still not going to sleep independently, which is problematic. Add that to bad day time sleep and the main problem of frequent night waking and we're not happy! I think all the problems are interrelated, so let's hope if we fix the going to sleep problem the others will follow...

Cheers,

Alex