Author Topic: 14 MONTHS.....STILL NO SLEEP.....ZOMBIE MUM NEEDS HELP!  (Read 1214 times)

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Offline StaceyandBeau

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14 MONTHS.....STILL NO SLEEP.....ZOMBIE MUM NEEDS HELP!
« on: October 14, 2009, 11:26:50 am »
Hi Anna,

Iv messaged you privately as you are always the one that helps me so thought id cut out the middle man. I just have a couple of questions for you.
We got on track after your last lot of advice but have since had chicken pox, teething and a heavy cold and we are back to square one.
I did the thing of laying him on my bed and giving him calpol and he got use to falling asleep there.
Now when he wakes in his cot...and this is frequently, he wants to get out to my bed as he points to the door.
His nap times are good, and he gets to sleep fine. There isnt a problem there anymore, its just the night wakings. He will wake up anywhere between 2 and 10 times in the duration of the night. Usually every half hour after i put him down at 7.30 up til about 11 and then again at 5 or 6am. Sometimes in between its a joke!
What im doing now is going into him, he is standing at the cot. I bend down to him, and put my arms around him loosely and hug him and whisper 'time to go to sleep'. He will scream but stsay there until he drops to a seating position where i then loosely hug him again and he will eventually lay down and then sleep. SOMETIMES!! Othertimes he will just scream for hours.
Is this wrong what im doing? And if not then whats the next step?
Why the hell is he waking so much?
Do 14month olds still need winding? Im LOST!! IM SO LOST! Sometimes i think that this whole baby whisperer stuff has ruined everything. Perhaps if id followed my own instincts then he would be a much happier baby. Its all well and good getting information from people on the net but there is no one there to tell you what to do when you need it ITS HARD WORK! I have no idea what im doing and i have never once in the last 14 months gotten to the bottom of his problems. I doubt myself too much!
I need tracy! Or super nanny, or anyone to stand in the room and help me, IM SCARED OF MY OWN CHILD!!! Please help me!!  x

Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: 14 MONTHS.....STILL NO SLEEP.....ZOMBIE MUM NEEDS HELP!
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 13:20:46 pm »
Hi there

Hugs  :) first of all.

How does he get to sleep during the day - on your bed or in his bed?

My thoughts: if it was me, I would draw a line under the past and from now on, he sleeps in his bed in his room. So, cuddles and comfort til drowsy if needed, but in his room. When laid down in his bed, I would either lie down next to him on the floor and close eyes. Through all the standing up, crying etc, I would focus on calm, reassuring, understanding "it's time to sleep now" and keep on the floor - showing him what is meant to happen.

I did this with DS when he was learning to go to sleep by himself. He was 10m old though, so he may've needed the lying down bit more than our DS but... it's a thought.

Once DS would lie down to go to sleep, I began sitting (curled up on the floor, head on its side, eyes closed) near his bed instead. So, I'd put him in his bed and I'd sit on the floor. I'd say the same thing 'time to sleep now', and stay there. Reassuring as needed (not constant, every few minutes maybe). When he wouldn't lie down for a bit, then I'd pat his mattress where his head should be. I always kept my position low and close to the floor so that if he wanted to look at me, reach, he'd have to be down close to the mattress too.

Every few days, I moved further away from his bed and closer to the door, following a Gradual Withdrawl approach. Again, saying little, rarely eye contact and focusing on that it was time to sleep. I had music quietly playing the whole time, which helped both of us I think.

You mentioned Anna in your post, so at a guess I'm thinking you may have tried PUPD before? If so, I wonder whether once your LO gets the 'lie down to go to sleep' message, you might be out of the door quite quickly rather than taking it slowly as I did as the foundations of independent sleep are already there.

Either way, I would aim for a focus on he sleeps in his room. I found things really improved for us when I drew that line.

HTH

Charlottte

Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: 14 MONTHS.....STILL NO SLEEP.....ZOMBIE MUM NEEDS HELP!
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 13:25:06 pm »
Forgot to say, yes it is hard work. DS didn't STTN until 10months old. Until then, he woke every few hours. Shortly after he started STTN, we hit the 2-1 nap transition which wrecked naps and night sleep - so rubbish naps, NWs in the evening and dead of night, with delightful EWs too. I thought I was the worst Mother ever. My DS looked so tired, strangers commented on it. Once I got his routine tweaked again and those teeth quit being such a menace, he slept better again. When he went to 1 nap at 14m old (I think), he started taking 3h naps and sleeping a good 11h night. Haven't looked back since!!!

I think lots of the Mamas on here that advise, have been through hell at some point. Take heart in that!  :)

Offline StaceyandBeau

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Re: 14 MONTHS.....STILL NO SLEEP.....ZOMBIE MUM NEEDS HELP!
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 16:03:58 pm »
Right, ok, so when he wakes up crying standing at him cot. I go in the room and lay on the floor and be all calming etc until he lays down and i can still stroke him and stuff?? If i start playing the laying him down game then we have a fight and its ridiculous, he's head butted me before.
Iv found that he settles alot quicker if i tend to not  move him at all, just sooth him stroking or whatever.

Last night i decided that he wouldne come in my bed nomatter what. It started to get worrying because sometimes id just wake up in the middle of the night and find him in my bed and i had no recollection of bringing him in at all!! Just did it in my sleep!
So last night i left him in his cot the entire night and did what i explained in the previous message. Put him to bed at 7.45. He woke at 8.10, 8.30, 9, 10 and stirred at 10.30 but settled himself or just didnt wakeup properly. He then woke at 5.45am and that is the longest period he has slept for in a long time.
I then persisted and he fell back to sleep at 6.30 for 10mins and by that time it was time for us to get up and start our day.
Mummys bed doesnt exist anymore for beau!!

My original post was actually a private message to anna because she had helped me in the past. But she asked me to post it in here. I have tried pu/pd when he wasnt able to stand months ago and it worked beautifully when i took his paci from him. I wouldnt bother trying it now because i dont know if its right for his age or whatever. I well and truly confused!!
I need help and before tonight too!!!! X X X X X X X

Offline *Liz*

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Re: 14 MONTHS.....STILL NO SLEEP.....ZOMBIE MUM NEEDS HELP!
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 17:29:41 pm »
Charlotte has given some great advice.

I totally agree with you that PU/PD is no longer appropriate for your lo. Basically you SHOULD NOT enter a situation where you are fighting with him. If laying him down makes him go wild then don't do it. It drives my DS wild as well. Also you are right and PU/PD is not age appropriate after 12 mths, mainly as they are too physically strong by then anyway.

Sounds like you did SUPER last night  :-*

I just wonder if your lo has a lovey at all? I find that a great thing to use, and my DS pretty much knows that if I give him his lovey he should go to sleep. It seems to give him great comfort at this age, and he is genuinely attached to it now.

About the stroking - I think that is fine as long as you keep in mind to keep doing less and less of it. Use it to calm him, but don't stroke him to sleep otherwise you will remain a prop - just in a different form.

I think perhaps Charlotte is right and lying down would be better. I wonder if by putting your arms around him in a kneeling position he is getting the impression you will pick him up - and then gets very cross when you don't?

Huge ((hugs)) and hope you have a decent night  :-*

Offline anna*

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Re: 14 MONTHS.....STILL NO SLEEP.....ZOMBIE MUM NEEDS HELP!
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 18:49:08 pm »
(((((((hugs))))))) hun.

The truth is, it does get harder to settle them as they get older. Their tempers are getting stronger, their memories are better, they are physically stronger and they'll put up a fight for longer. The good news is, at the same time, they're understanding more. It won't be long before you can tell him what's going on, what's going to happen and what you need him to do.

There are at least two threads going on on this board with mums who've started bringing their LOs into their beds. I'm a real believer that there is no right or wrong way to get your kid to sleep - you have to do whatever you have to do at the moment. Nobody gets to tell you what's right or wrong unless they're there with you dealing with a screaming baby at 3.40am. At some point, you just have to do whatever it takes that you can all get some rest. And deal with the consequences later.

You did absolutely brilliant last night, I think that is the right approach. No more mummy's bed. I'm sure I've told you this before (it is a bit of a favourite of mine), but in an experiment on dogs' behaviour, they found that if a dog gets a treat every time he presses a lever, then when the treats stop, he very quickly loses interest in the lever. But if he sometimes gets a treat, he will go on compulsively pressing the lever long after the treats have stopped. Consistency is 100% key - with little ones as well as dogs ;) :P

Oh, one question, what is his routine like now? You know that having lots of wakings in the early part of the night, and early wakings, can be a big sign of overtiredness so it might be worth just posting his routine so we can take a peek.

One last thing for you, this link. When they're younger we do shush-pat and PUPD, now they're big toddlers, it's WIWO or GW (or a combination of both): http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0





Offline clazzat

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Re: 14 MONTHS.....STILL NO SLEEP.....ZOMBIE MUM NEEDS HELP!
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 19:13:31 pm »
I was going to ask about his routine as well, since the very unsettled evening sounds like my lo when she is OT - she is 14 months too, and we are getting into the 2-1 and having OT for the first time in many months!

Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: 14 MONTHS.....STILL NO SLEEP.....ZOMBIE MUM NEEDS HELP!
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 20:06:56 pm »
Had also been wondering about the 2-1 switch affects.  :)

The jack-in-the-box game was, for us, a complete and utter nightmare. Lots of people told me that if I kept laying him back down, he'd get the message. And I think some LOs do. But my DS didn't and it became more of a battle of wills, with him getting more and more upset and frustrated.

So I didn't lay him back down when he stood up unless he was so tired he would fall and hurt himself - and even then, he had to be pretty sleepy to be laid down. While he was standing, I just stayed low on the floor. At first I lay on the floor next to him, then over a few weeks I sat further and further away from his bed. The standing up in the cot rule stayed consistent no matter where I was: he had to choose to lay down, I could only encourage (in a very calm, laid back manner). So. I would pat the mattress where his head should be, maybe pick his lovey up and place it there, gently stroking it to get his attention. I didn't do it constantly; just every few minutes or so. When I was sitting further away, I still did the same - I would crawl forwards so keeping my body as close to mattress height as possible, and pat the mattress. If he lay down, I would slowly and gently stroke his head a few times, praise him for lying down 'good boy etc' and then gradually move away.

TBH, by the time I was sitting a little further away I didn't have to pat the mattress that often. It was a choice that he would make. He would often lie down, look like he'd sleep and then stand up again furious or reaching for a cuddle, but mostly laid back down again when reminded to 'lie down. It's time to sleep'.

Occasionally I would cuddle him while standing through the bars when he was really upset (I avoided picking up as much as poss), and would then pat the bed and encourage him down.

Like pps said, initially I did what I could to comfort him from a low position next to the bed - stroking, my hand, and soothing voice.

When we got to the point where I could put him to bed and leave the room, I stayed outside the door for a few nights with teh door ajar. I'd poke my head around to say the usual words, and be there to reassure trying to use my voice only. My DS seemed to respond to that reassurance quite strongly.

At night, I followed the same approach of settling in his crib where possible. I would give him a hug when I went in over the bars, and then either lay him down (when really dosy) or cuddle through crib bars. I would lie down or curl up next to his crib and settle him with words and stroking, then gradually move away to whereever I had got to at bedtime. In the night, I never left the room until he was asleep and after a few nights that generally didn't take too long. Once he mastered falling asleep without me in the room, I would sit on the other side of the door til he fell asleep for NWs, after settling him first. I kept a douvet and pillow on the landing for a while  ;).

Does that make sense? That was gradual withdrawl. Took a few weeks for us. But I do wonder if he's already mastered sleep before, whether you might make faster progress than we did.

We had a rough time with the 2-1 switch initially - a monster UT / OT cycle that caused evening wakings, night wakings and early wakings too. It wasn't a great time  ;D but once we got a handle on the routine changes, it really improved.

HTH

Charlotte

Offline deckchariot

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Re: 14 MONTHS.....STILL NO SLEEP.....ZOMBIE MUM NEEDS HELP!
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 18:11:04 pm »
{{{{{hugs}}}}}} it really is so difficult when it feels like there's nothing you can do that's helping.  The pps have given you some great advice, and I think you're off to a wonderful start!  Please do post your routine as well and we can have a look there.
Michelle