Author Topic: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!  (Read 1788 times)

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Offline knock0ut

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EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« on: October 17, 2009, 00:49:13 am »
Help - what is going on???  It's 1.20am and my DD has been awake since 10pm.  We have a looooong history of NW (see end of thread in general sleep - "Please post your GW success stories and routines" - sorry don't know how to do a link) However, over the last week she has STTN about 5 times, which is nothing short of a miracle considering she has only done this a few times in nearly 9 months.  I got loads of advice from Charlotte (thanks if you're reading!) and I got our routine sorted.  We were still working on GW for independent sleep, but on most occasions when LO woke, she would cry a little then put herself back to sleep.  Last night she was unsettled and had a long NW from 11 - 12.30, but then slept til 6.30.  Tonight, as I said, she has now been awake since 10pm.  We suspected teething (as we always do) but she has now had teething granules, paracetamol, ibuprofen and anbesol (which would surely knock anyone out).  DH has now resorted to taking her downstairs and having a stand off of who can stay awake the longest (really not the answer I know, but I was threatening to go out and throw myself off a bridge - it really is that bad!)
She's on a 4 hour easy, usually taking 2 1.5 hour naps.  Today was disrupted as we had to go to the docs this morning, so she had a 2 hour nap this afternoon.  If this was a one off, I would put tonights fiasco down to that but that doesn't explain the similar NW last night.  On these lengthy NW, she is quite happy to 'chat' to us, laugh, watch TV! etc - in other words she seems wide awake, but if we were to leave her she would scream the place down.  I know what we should and shouldn't be doing in terms of routine and responses to NW (again -thanks to Charlotte) but I really just can't get my head round what causes these frustrating 'blips'.  How can things be looking up so much and then take a huge tumble, without anything else changing?  On nights like this I really do feel like I will end up admitted to our local psychiatric unit!!!  Anyway - she's now been awake for nearly 4 hours, so if we weren't dealing with an OT baby before, we certainly will be now.  I best go rescue her from the stand off.  Also - am I now being too stubborn about not APOP?  I know I could feed her to sleep, but that seems to be undoing all our work so far to get out of this habit. AAAAAGH!

Offline marlowsmom

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2009, 01:46:14 am »
If she is OT as she is now then I say go ahead and feed her to sleep.    She'll get a reset then and you can continue your path with her.    How old is she?  Can you tell us how much A time she is getting between naps?   Post a schedule if you have the time.    Hang in there!   Big Hugs!!

Offline Peek-a-boo

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2009, 02:09:52 am »
If you are in a period of sleep training, yes, I would stubbornly avoid APOP unless you suspect genuine pain.  I'll try to come back later and post more. 

Offline knock0ut

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2009, 09:25:49 am »
At 2.30 am this morning - after being awake for 4.5 hours, I took her to our bed and fed her to sleep, thus unravelling all our work for the last month+, so I guess we're back at square one.  I know I shouldn't have, but it was for her own protection.  Yes - I'm an absolutely terrible  mother anbd come very close to losing my rag on nights like last night, despite loving my DD more than anything on earth. Usual routine:
6.30/7 Awake + BF
8.30 Solids
10 ish - Nap (1.5 hours)
11.30 - BF
12.30 Solids
2.30 - Nap (1.5hrs)
4 - BF
5 - Solids
6.30/7 bath, BF and bed
Obviously it doesn't always go quite to plan but seems to be no connection with disrupted day leading to disrupted night. I never know whether it will be a good or bad night.  My mental health is in tatters - as is my marriage. Two days ago I was on a high as she had STTN for 5 nights but now I cant bear to even look at my gorgeous daughter and I am sat here in tears of despair.  This has to end.  I just need to know what is causing such horrendously long NW - seperation anxiety, OT, UT???? She will be 9 months on 24th Oct.

Offline marlowsmom

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2009, 12:31:47 pm »
You are NOT a terrible mother.  I don't think one night is going to undo all the sleep training you've done.     I'll let Peek-A-Boo look at this.

Offline Peek-a-boo

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2009, 20:02:51 pm »
You are definitely not a terrible mother and you have not ruined everything.  Yes, it's best if you can as consistent as possible in avoiding APOP during a period of sleep training, but it's always most important to keep you and your baby safe and sane.  :-*  :-*

Looking at your routine and the scenario that you describe, what stands out to me is that in your ideal routine, your LO would be getting 15 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period.  My kids (especially my first) tended to be on the lighter side for sleep needs, but by 8-9 months, they were only needing 13.5ish hours of sleep--my first more like 13 hours of sleep. 

We went through a very frustrating period of sleep training when DS was around 8 months.  He'd been sleeping terribly--no routine, hit and miss naps, 3-6 times a night nursing back to sleep.  We found BW and started pu/pd.  Night sleep improved immediately--one wake up the first three nights, then STTN.  We had a few days of good naps and then naps went down the tube.  No matter what A time I tried or what trick I tried, he was not napping more than 45 minutes to an hour once a day.  After days, I decided to take a break from day time sleep training and APOP by taking him for car rids for his naps.  I'd had in my head that he needed 3-3.5 hours of day sleep and in the car, I could get him to do that.  Well, two or three days into our APOP for naps, he suddenly quit STTN and we started to have long (1-3 hours) night wakings during which he seemed like he would have been quite happy to get up and play, but was going to scream if we insisted he stay in his crib.

This went on for days and finally I sat down with my sleep logs and did some math.  I realized that no matter what, he was only getting about 13.25 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period.  If I forced the long naps with APOP, then he was creating A time for himself with long night wakings.  If he slept a solid 12 hour night, then it was very difficult to get him to take more than one nap (which he needed for his mood).

Once I realized that he only needed about 13.25 hours of sleep, I was able to work out a routine that reflected his actual sleep needs.  It meant dropping to a 10.5 hour night and having much longer A time than I thought he could really handle, but we shifted to it gradually it ultimately it was successful. 

Later in his life, when he was down to just one nap, we went through a phase where he'd shift back and forth between having 13 hours of sleep and having 11 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period.  It took me a while to realize that he really needed about 12 hours and he was getting a bit too much one day, so then doing a bit too little the next day to balance things out.

In the first few days of our sleep training there was 2-3 days where he slept well at night AND took decent naps.  I realized in retrospect that he was so OT when we started that he needed a little extra sleep to catch up.  Once he was caught up, his actual sleep needs emerged and they were simply less than I had imagined. 

All this to say, without knowing all of your history, if you've been sleep training and had 5 nights of significantly increased sleep, it's possible your DD was catching up from being very OT.  Now that she's caught up, her actual sleep needs may be emerging and they may be a bit different than what you imagined.   

If I were in your shoes, I'd personally look at gently stretching A time and reducing day time sleep.  I'd probably start waking her at 1 hour from her first nap, and plan on less than a 12 hour night.  This is just me. 

When you get the long night wakings, what happens if you leave her in the crib and let her play and just lie on the floor beside the crib?  While you're sorting out whatever the cause of the NWings is, it's important you handle them in a way that won't perpetuate them.  Light plays a critical role in establishing wake/sleep patterns.  So, if your LO wakes in the night and you get her up and expose her to light or Television, you are signaling to her brain that this is a good time to be awake and will make it more likely that she wake up again at the time the next day.  If possible, when you have night wakings, I'd try not to focus so much on getting her back to sleep (I know easier said than done), but rather just keep her company in the dark in the least stimulating way possible.  So, I'd make a bed on the floor, lay down, and wait.  If DD is distressed, I'd verbally reassure her, maybe sing or hum softly, perhaps stick my hand in the crib (although this gets uncomfy fast) and just wait.  If you can, fall asleep yourself. 

Do what you can to preserve your sanity.  Knowing your nights may be crazy, see if you can get DH on board with some sanity time for you during the evening or on weekends--long bubble baths, an hour to slip out by yourself and read at a coffee shop, etc.  I found for myself that it didn't have to be big or long events (although those are nice too), but an hour here and there throughout the week could really help me keep perspective. 

It's possible that there's not a good explanation for why your LO is doing what she's doing.  Sometimes there just isn't.  When that stuff happens, all you can do is handle it in the lest destructive way possible and hope the phase passes quickly.  {{{Hugs}}}  I hope something her helps. 

Offline knock0ut

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2009, 21:31:00 pm »
Thank you so much Peek-a-boo for your response - what you say makes soooo much sense.  I think I've got so bogged down with sleep issues that I can't see the wood for the trees!  A see-saw between OT and UT could well explain our problems - and would certainly explain why a terrible night is usually followed by a really good night.  We are similar to the scenario you describe in that we have gone from no routine, virtually no naps and lots of AP back to sleep to the other extreme of trying to enforce hours and hours of sleep.  I also have become a slave to long car journeys in order to 'make' our LO nap!!  The routine I posted was a bit idealistic - and more a reflection of what I thought DD SHOULD be doing rather than what she needs.  Thank you for reminding me to 'listen' to her too!!   Some days when I perceive her to have had a rubbish nap, she will surprise us and STTN.  I think I need to start keeping a log of each day's routine so I can try and work out what suits her best.  Today has been a bit of mess due to last nights fiasco:
7.30 Awake + BF
9 - Solids
10.45 -Nap (2hrs 15 mins - woke her as this felt too long for a nap!)
12 - BF
1.30 Solids
5 - Catnap (30 mins)
5.30 - BF
6.30 - Solids
8 - Bath, BF and asleep for 8.30
This is far from our 'ideal' routine but she's been asleep now for 2 hours without a peep, so we'll see what tonight brings! 

For her first nap of the day she does seem to respond well to about 3 - 3.5 hours of A prior to the nap.  If we're at home and she goes down in her cot, this nap will usually be 1 - 1.5 hours.  If it's only 1 hour and I then have to be putting her down for a second nap after another 3.5 hours - how do we then make it to bedtime without a really long A???  Sorry - I feel like I'm only just getting my head round this EASY business!  Maybe I need to focus less on the exact structure of the day and think more about number of hours sleep???  When you say you reduced to 10.5 hours at night, did that mean you had a late bedtime?
   
With regard to the activity during NWs - we did lose it a bit last night with the whole TV thing - we usually try to stick to a strict low stimulation approach.  It was silly and we do just need to reinstate the sleeping bag on bubs floor -we've done that before to good effect.  I think the other issue last night was the 'oh my goodness, I thought we were making progress' reaction!

Thanks also for the advice re: sanity time.  I am lucky that I do usually get this a few times a week when I escape to the gym or out for a run. I had actually been for a run before our chaotic night - but I obviously need to up the mileage a little!!!

Thanks again  :-*

Offline alexvonw

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2009, 06:47:05 am »
Hi KnockOut,

I just wanted to express my sympathies and tell you I feel the same most of the time. I feel like a terrible mother, like I might do something rash and my marriage is suffering too...I keep telling myself that we're working on it and it will get better even if it is 2 steps forward 1 step back sometimes. I have to tell my husband this too!

There's no more advice I can give you, but I thought you'd like to know that there are lots of other people out there who are in the same boat and feel equally terrible (isn't it amazing how these tiny little people have so much power over us?!).

Take care of yourself and you'll make it - one day at a time and it won't last forever (at least you are dealing with it now and not in 6 months time when it would be even harder to break the habits).

Cheers,

Alex

Offline knock0ut

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2009, 20:50:10 pm »
Thanks for the words of support Alex  :-* It really does help to know others have felt like this - not many people admit it I guess.

Last night wasn't too bad - DD slept from 8.30pm - 11.30pm (taking about 40mins to resettle) then again at 4am (15mins to resettle) and slept til 7.30am.  Obviously it's not as good as the nights where she STTN, but I'm starting to think they were just a fluke, to tease us into thinking we had cracked it!!!

Today we have tried shortening naps and slightly extending A times:
7.30 Awake and BF
9 Solids
10.45 Nap - 1 hour 15min (was supposed to wake her after an hour but got carried away with the ironing!)
12 BF
12.30 Solids
3.30 Nap - 1 hour
4.45 BF
6.30 Solids
7.30 Bath, BF and asleep for 8pm

Fingers crossed for another ok night - I hate the feeling of lying awake in bed waiting for the cry, and the way your heart sinks when it comes! 

Offline Otownmama

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2009, 00:19:27 am »
just posting to say that I you must be reading my mind! I'm also close to losing it completely and my DH and I are struggling as well. NWs are absolutely the worst! Our LO was STTN from 7 wks to about 4 mos and since then it's gotten progressively worse with regular nights of 4-5 wakings, some like last night where she's up for 1.5 hrs in the middle of the night, and then occasional nights where she'll sleep from DF to 630. Today we had a disastrous nap day and I was crying, then got so mad at myself for being mad at a baby! Who does that?! She can't control her sleep yet! Ugh...I always thought I was a strong person but motherhood is bringing me to my knees...

Offline knock0ut

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2009, 14:44:58 pm »
I think we need an angry mothers support group!  It's amazing how these tiny creatures can bring out the worst in us.  Thanks for being honest - I guess if more people were open about getting mad with their babies, we wouldn't feel so terrible!  That feeling of guilt the moment you raise your voice, or pat that bit harder than usual is crucifying.  We had another crazy night last night - I should can't see any light at the end of the tunnel!
When we decided to have a baby, I was conscious that it may have some effect on our marriage - we've been together 14 years so I guess it's a long time to be just the 2 of us.  However - I really didn't think it would be so bad.  Its not like we've reached divorce zone yet, but we just seem worlds apart.  I thought our DD would enrich our lives .... and I'm sure she will one day!

Offline Peek-a-boo

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2009, 05:03:09 am »
If it's only 1 hour and I then have to be putting her down for a second nap after another 3.5 hours - how do we then make it to bedtime without a really long A???  Sorry - I feel like I'm only just getting my head round this EASY business!  Maybe I need to focus less on the exact structure of the day and think more about number of hours sleep???  When you say you reduced to 10.5 hours at night, did that mean you had a late bedtime?


Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you.  I've been a wee bit crazy the last couple of days with a cold.   I would say that yes, you need to keep focusing on the structure of the day, it's just you shape your thinking about what the structure should look like in part by considering a realistic picture of the number of hours your DD needs.  If you have in your head she needs 15 hours and she only ever gets 13.5, then you'll tend to overlook that she's happy and well-rested and keep beating yourself and feeling negatively about your progress.  Observing and identifying how much sleep she seems to need in a 24 hour period will just help you have more realistic expectations and help you build a routine that's a better fit to her. 

Reducing to 10.5 hours a night was a bit of an extreme because my son was such a terrible napper that if he slept more than that, he just wouldn't take 2 naps in a day--and he really needed his sleep spread out over two naps still.  If he hit the 11 hour mark for night sleep, then he had had enough sleep that he would fight off one of his naps.  My DD has tended throughout her life to sleep an 11ish hour night--sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. 

My DS did tend to have long A time before bed, but he handled that very well.  For him, his shortest A time of the day was first thing in the morning and his 2nd A time was a little longer and his 3rd A time was even longer.  My DD tends to have A times that are more even in length.  Again, one of those things that you'll slowly figure out as you observe. 

I hope things are going okay.  I totally relate to the anger and frustration.  It's easy to get really tied up in the whole sleep issue--especially when you're not getting as much as you need.  For a while I put a sign on DS's door that read:  "It's just sleep, not character."  It was to remind me that my real goal for him was to become a man of good character--honor, integrity, respect--not a great sleeper, lol.  Yes, it would be nice to get some sleep along the way, but when he's 25, I won't be bragging about what a great sleeper he is.

The whole first year is hard--it's perpetual change: growth spurts, milestones in movement and speech, teeth, more teeth . . . sometimes it's one road bump after another.

{{{Hugs}}}  You'll get through this.  Do you have anyone that you trust to baby sit?  Perhaps it would help you and DH to get out for a bit on your own? 

Offline knock0ut

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Re: EXPLAIN THIS - NEED ANSWERS!!
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2009, 20:26:05 pm »
Thanks for posting again - hope you're feeling better now.  We've all had a lovely cold here too - which really hasn't helped with the sleep issue.  Another road bump eh?!

We're still struggling with DD's sleep - but I've taken your advice on board and at the moment we've taken a step back in terms of not focusing on whether or not she sleeps through, but just observing her sleep patterns through the day and what effect this has at night.  Her naps seem to be messy too this week - but I guess that could be due to her cold.  A couple of days ago, she woke after just 30 mins from both her naps.  She then slept from bedtime until 4am (which is much better than she had been doing), but it took us til 5.30 to get her back to sleep.  Today she had an hour this morning and only 30 mins this afternoon, so we'll see what tonight brings.  She seems to be resisting naps much more than usual this week - and has taken to grabbing my face, sticking her fingers in my ear and tugging on my hair - whilst letting out a very cheeky laugh!!! The little monkey picks up on it the moment you so much as smirk - but at least this dispels any anger!

I love your philosophy about sleep v's character - it's so true that sleep issues can take over your life.  I'll remind myself of this during our NW tonight.  Thanks! 

With regard to the babysitting - the MIL is dying to look after her and we have discussed getting out for a couple of hours on our own, so we may brave it and leave her.  I'm sure it would do us some good.

Thanks again for the support - will keep you posted.