almost 15 months old and still hungry at night

[Sapphyre]

Hi there, I'd really appreciate some help! My little one is STILL waking up hungry during the night. She has consistently been behind since day one when it comes to how much formula she would take, and how often. She topped out at about 30-32 oz a day before we started solids at about 5.5 months, and took much longer to transition to 4 hour easy than most little ones. She just couldn't go that long without eating.

Because of this, I just figured that maybe it would take her a bit longer to get off the night time feeds than other little ones. She had a dream feed until about 10 months because if we didn't give it to her she'd wake up screaming and not go back to sleep until we fed her and would always take a full feed of about 5oz.

So, with time, she got to a point where she didn't need the dream feed anymore, then she dropped down to one bottle per night. And now we're stuck there. It looked like things were getting better, over a week and a half period we had two nights where she slept through till 5:30, I gave her a 4oz bottle (bearing in mind that she normally would only drink 5oz at a time) and she slept another couple hours (woohoo! that doesn't often happen) and one night where she slept all the way through.

But then a week ago she got sick. And started teething. While her cold was at its worst, there were nights where she took two bottles. 

Oh, and I know its hunger because of a) the amount she's taking and b) its never the same time when she wakes up. It can be anywhere between 2:30 till 5:30 that she wakes up. Sometimes I can just give her a small feed; about 3 oz, and she'll go back to sleep until morning but other times she might drift off a little bit but is restless and won't fall into a deep sleep, eventually waking up and crying again. As soon as I give her more to eat, she drops off with no trouble.

Generally she goes to bed around 8pm and is up around 7. She has some fruit and cereal with Daddy while I get a bit more sleep, then when I have breakfast (around 8:30) she has some toast, goat yogurt, and more fruit. (she has started refusing eggs and meat, and can't have dairy.)

Then a small snack (raisins or a rice cracker or two) around 10:30, lunch at noon. At lunch I usually try to get her to eat some meat or eggs again, and she has potato or rice, and some veg. A couple ounces of goat milk before her nap and she'll sleep anywhere from 2 hours to 3 hours. A small snack after her nap; usually fruit. Then supper at 5-5:30, oatmeal before bed, then about 4-5oz of formula.

Trouble is, some days she'll refuse to eat her oatmeal, or some part of her supper, or drink the bottle before bed. The nights when she slept the most where days when she ate really well in the evening, but if she won't eat, she won't eat, right?

Not sure what to do anymore, but I'm getting really tired of getting up at night. Because I have trouble falling back asleep, I'm usually up for 1.5-2hours. Oh...and I wake up hungry during the night myself, so this whole thing is extra challenging because I definitely sympathize with her being hungry!   Haven't had a solid 8 hours sleep since I became pregnant with her...so about 2 years.

If anyone has suggestions; I'd love to hear them. Maybe something needs to change with what she is eating during the day? I don't know, and I'm so tired of trying to figure it out on my own! 

(I was SO happy to find the board again...I tried to access it months ago and kept getting error messages. Not sure what happened there, but I missed the support here!)

Thanks in advance!

Sapphyre

[anna*]

I daresay she is hungry in the night but that doesn't mean she really needs the milk, iyswim. Look at it this way. If you set your alarm for 2am for a week and went downstairs for a snack, pretty soon you'd start waking up hungry in the night. The times at which we get hungry are conditioned, to a certain extent.

I think in your position I would just start diluting her night time bottles more and more. So instead of having (for examples) 6 oz of water and 6 scoops of formula, have 6 water/5 formula. Then in a couple of nights do 6 water/4 formula. Etc. Hopefully when it starts to be more like water than milk she won't bother to wake up for it any more, and she'll already be making up the calories during the daytime.

The alternative would be to go cold turkey - yes it will be a few tough nights but then it will be over. It does need you to be totally committed and consistent though.

[Sapphyre]

Thanks Anna!  I do see what you mean.

Diluting the formula is a great idea. We use the concentrate rather than the powder because the lactose free type we use is actually cheaper as a concentrate. Couldn't believe it when I priced it out. I could dilute her bottles by mixing the formula as normal, but then putting less of the mix in the bottle and topping up with water. At this point, she's only having a bottle before bed, then one during the night. Hopefully by the middle of next week her bed time bottle will be a cup of goat milk instead. Just gradually introducing the milk to make sure she handles it as well as she has the goat yogurt.

Cold turkey definitely wouldn't work for me. I'd be a wreck. I'd much rather go this route, even though it'll take longer.

Thank you again for your help. And for responding so quickly.

Sapphyre

[mum101]

hi, glad you can get on the boards now!

I agree diluting the night bottles would be good, and even then slowly reducing the volume in the bottle (maybe 10-20mls a week, something small). Hopefully that helps.

In order to help your DD eat more in the day I wouldn't worry too much about how much she takes right before bed. Kids get tired then and harder to feed, so it's not the best time to load up the food.  You can give her more food in lunch or afternoon snacks.  I suggest to add some other food to the fruit you offer at afternoon snack.  Look for more nutrient dense foods at that time too. 

Also raisins or sultanas often go through unprocessed, but at the time they can fill your tummy up and you feel full. I would suggest limiting things like that.  Has she tried dates, they require more chewing up so she's likely to not swallow them whole.

For my DS I have had to actively feed him up, in fact if I don't he hardly gains weight.  I add dry formula to his breakfast cereal as well as cows milk.  I also add it to stews or rice meals. I offer him peanut butter (high in good fats), avocado, and such.  Look for similar options that can fit in with what your DD can eat. 

I hear you on the sleep front, my DS took until around 14 months before he slept right through consistently!  He had been sick and was catching up in his eating, but once he got to full, he stopped waking. 

[Sapphyre]

Thank you so much for the additional info! 

DD is sometimes difficult to feed before bed, but I didn't make the connection that it's because she's tired. Today we made sure she ate earlier, basically two suppers, as well as a good breakfast, lunch and snacks, as well as 3oz of formula before bed. Keeping my fingers crossed for tonight.

Thanks for the info on the raisins too. I didn't realize they don't do much for little ones.  We got some goat cheese today, but its really expensive so I'm not sure how much of that she'll get in the future. Hopefully she outgrows the dairy problem soon. My naturopath had mentioned that there is protein powder that little ones can have. I may look into that as an alternative for her. But, as I said, she ate really well today, so maybe the dilution of her night time bottle is starting to work!

I'm thinking that maybe I'll give her some milk before I go to bed. The last few days she's been waking around 12:30 - 1:30 hungry (earlier than normal), then waking early in the morning (5am!) and not going back to sleep. Getting up at 5 is not normal for her, and its making her super tired during the day. I'm thinking if I top her up before bed, then she should wake up closer to 4. I'll give her the diluted feed and she should sleep at least till 7 then.

At this point, the dream feed is going backwards, but its better than getting up twice during the night.  Once I get rid of the middle of the night bottle, if we're still doing an evening feeding then we can work on getting rid of it.

Thanks again for the help!

Sapphyre

[mum101]

sounds promising, let us know how she goes   

[~*Nicole*~]

I was going to suggest, similarly to pps, that her diet (the dairy issue and her meat/egg refusal etc.) is probably a big factor. DD over here loads up on lots of pastas, cheeses, meats and things and I think that helps get in a lot of calories and keep her feeling full. The protein powder sounds like a great idea. If she refuses meats and eggs can you try blending/grinding them up and putting them into things she will eat? French toast is a great way to get some egg in or quiche b/c it doesn't taste 'eggy'.

[Sapphyre]

Things are going well. The bottle before I go to bed is helping. Last night I fed her at 10 and she slept till 5 before I gave her the diluted bottle. She went back to sleep and slept till 7:15.

Unfortunately, we are a bit restricted as to what we can offer as we are following a rather slow food introduction schedule. We're doing this because I have a number of food intolerances, and we're concerned that she may have inherited the tendency. By waiting to introduce some things that are harder to digest, we're hoping that she won't be as likely to develop problems.

As a result; she won't have any nuts until she's two, and no egg whites until 18 months. (great idea about the french toast, I'll have to remember to give her that once she can eat whole eggs!) I don't remember when beef or pork can be introduced on this schedule, but definitely not until she's 18 months. I'm working on introducing some different beans now, to try to get some more high protein things into her. It's going well. I tried giving her some dairy again this week, but its still a problem. 

She ate some egg yolk today because I mashed it up and mixed it with applesauce. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. And other times she scarfs the yolk back as soon as I put it on her plate. I think she's just trying to exert some control over her life. I've noticed that if I put her food in front of her, and then just focus on eating my own food she'll frequently just munch away. But if I'm watching her, she'll start to refuse. 

Many thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions. I really appreciate the help! 

Sapphyre

[~*Nicole*~]

DD is a bit similar. If I am watching she throws food to the dogs and plays around refusing etc. But if I am minding my own and eating my own food she tends to eat more. I do think you're right...does seem to be a bit about control. Best of luck.

I understand about the slow introduction schedule. I wish I had more suggestions of foods to try.
I did hear some suggestions in the past about olive oil, coconut milk and other higher in fat foods added to other foods to get in some more calories. I guess you can always puree any beans she doesn't like and mix them with things she does like. What about tofu? or hummus?

[Sapphyre]

Have several bits of great news...first...we have the go ahead to try beef, pork, and tomatoes. If she is okay with them, they will open up a whole new world of things I can give her.

Secondly, we are done with formula completely. YAY!

Third, we are down to 1 oz of goat milk mixed with 3 oz of water in the night! And she has gone back to not waking for it until around 3 or so. Yay!

The time change really messed things up for us, she had gone back to waking up at 5 or 5:30 again. Ugh. I am SO not a morning person! But the last two days she has slept till 6:45 - 7:00. I'm going to give it another day or so to make sure she is back on track to stay, and then start decreasing the amount in the bottle again, as well as decreasing the amount of goat milk.

We're getting there!

Thank you again to all of you for your suggestions. I appreciate the support!

Sapphyre

[~*Nicole*~]

Excellent news. Thanks for keeping us updated. I hope she does well with the new foods.

[mum101]

Great news!

[Sapphyre]

Just wanted to pop in and let you know whats happening. We've had to give up on this process for now. Little one has been stuck on waking up around 5:15 - 5:30 and not going back to sleep. She went from 2 hour naps to 4 hour naps, waking up from those naps still tired, and never getting her energy up again before bed.  She also started to become quite cranky all the time, and our girl is known for her happy disposition.

We figured after a month, she should be adapting and since she's not we have come to the conclusion that she is just not ready to give up that night feed. I've looked into it some more and have found that this is actually quite common at this age.  As soon as I gave her 4oz of undiluted milk in the night, she slept through till 7:30 again. And her naps are gradually shortening again as she catches up on her sleep.

Another piece of good news in all of this is that she is now eating better where her meat and eggs are concerned. I realized that I needed to be chopping her food more finely than I was doing. If the meat is a bit on the dry side I mix it in with her vegetables and she eats that quite well. Works as a great substitute instead of sauces.

She did drop all of her other night feedings when she was ready to, which was later than what most kids do so for now we'll wait and see if she lets it go on her own. Later on, if she still doesn't drop it, then we'll try this again.

Thanks again to everyone who helped out here. I've gotten some really helpful information!

Sapphyre

[mum101]

hi, she might have been sleeping more peacefully after a 5am feed and getting better rest, is that what you are thinking?

DS took until 14 or so months to stop waking at night for feeds, he had been sick and lost a lot of weight.  Once he started eating big amounts in the day to catch up he stopped waking. Now he just sometimes wakes to say 'oh hi mum' 

[Mashi]

I realise I am jumping in on this late and that you seem to have already made a decision but just want to give you some other things to think about.

If she is waking at 5-530 ish, my gut says that it is not hunger but a routine issue.  Perhaps OT from not napping well during the day as an example...there are other factors in that 530 wake up.  Just because she is eating 4 ounces doesn't mean that she woke for them, but the sucking comfort could be helping her to go back to sleep and/or she is so used to being fed in the night to get back to sleep that she does not know any other way to go back to sleep in the night, so when she gets a feed, she will.

I do think that widening her diet and adapting her meal schedule will help. I don't think that your food limitations are really all that strict or unusual - most LOs are not on nuts until after 2, egg whites before 12 months is usually a no-no and so waiting until after 18 months is not that odd either.  Lots of things you can use with egg yolks only (we have not done egg whites either and use the yolks only for baking, french toast, etc).  For meats you can try chicken, turkey, white fish or salmon. 

Starting at around 12ish months, LOs should be on a solids-based diet with milk not used as "feeds" but as "drinks". And, toddlers take in about 80% of their calories in the first two thirds of the day. So a good breakfast, good snack, good lunch and afternoon snack and then probably not as much for dinner and before bed as they are full from eating well during the day.   

So by this age it is good if your LO can eat more like an adult and less like a baby, kwim?  Table foods, with food intolerances and limited diet taken into account of course, but there is loads of support on the Food Allergies forum and you will find recipes and support from some parents who have children with EXTREMELY limited diets and thus they have creative ideas on getting healthy mixes of food in.

So just as an idea, a typical day for my 16 month old might be --

Breakfast - toast, fruit, small pieces of chicken and some yogurt
snack - cherry tomatoes and pieces of banana and a rice cracker
Lunch - sliced turkey, baked beans, mixed veggies (corn, carrots, peas), cream cheese on bread, and a piece of fruit
snack - yogurt or cheese, some meat or veggies
dinner - whatever we are having (usually a meat, potatoes/rice and veggie family, or pasta)

There is also a thread called "What did your Toddler eat today?" which has some great ideas for getting new meals in.

I don't think that her food intolerance is that limiting (unless it is moreso than you've said) and if you can get her into eating more at each meal and include snacks in the day that are filling, then she will not need that milk in the night.

Also, as I said at the start, if you want to post your routine (wake, nap times and lengths and bedtimes) then perhaps something else will stand out at some of us here as being the cause of her wakening.

HTH!