Re: 5 months: first time I try PU/PD and patt/shh (from Belgium)

[huby]

hello there.
Well I'm back. Have been giving it my all with some variation on shhh pat. The shhh has become rocking the cradle to sleep and the pat has become me making a shhh noise if you see what I mean.
I put her in her basket awake today. I made sure the curtains were closed and sound was minimal.
I then shh patted her very very briefly while holding her as this is now a cue and put her down awake in her basket. She cried for a bit so I rocked the basket and she stopped crying and just cooed and gurgled. Kept swaying the basket for 20 mins along with saying shhhh and she fell asleep.
What was happening was I didn't realise that babies cry in their sleep. I was jumping in all the time when I heard the cries and shhh and patting and actually waking her up. Someone said I should leave her for five mins to see if she self settled - I thought that would be cruel but gave it a go. And she did - and she's cried a few times since but I've been in the check and each time she's actually been asleep!
It's weird, I never knew babies did this as I didn't jump in at the first peep - but left it a good four mins before checking and she was asleep.
Right, better go and wake madam up (hurray) for a feed. Thanks so much for all your support. Will let you know if this was a fluke xx

[anna*]

That's great! It's definitely worth holding back to see what happens. If her cries get louder and more frantic sounding, then she needs you, but if it stays the same pitch or has a stop-start pattern then it's what we call a mantra cry and is her own way of settling herself.

[~Sara~]

Woohoo!  That's great news!   I can just imagine how happy and relieved that makes you to have such wonderful progress.  Here's hoping it wasn't a fluke, either!

[huby]

hi
yes indeed, and thank you. she's had three naps today and seems sooo much more settled and happy. She's only ten weeks though - could you tell me how many naps she should be having and for how long, please - just roughly. She's no on EASY as I'm not really a fan tbh, but I can totally see how and why people are.
Also, any ideas on how to extend her nap times, she gets past the 20 min mark but wakes up after the first sleeps cycle after 45 mins - sometimes I manage to catch it and shhh her back to sleep, but often she's not getting the deep sleep she needs. Thanks
Beena

[anna*]

I know you say you're not an EASY fan (dying of curiosity - why not? Which bit don't you like?), but you'll understand that we can only really advice on BW methods on this site. There's a few things involved in getting those longer naps. Part of it is developmental. Some (very few) babies never get the hang of longer naps and are chronic short nappers. Some get the hang around 5-6 months. Some just need a bit of practice (ie help from mum) and the more practice they get, the better they get at it. Another part is getting the A time right - too long or too short will give short naps. And the third part is being on a good reliable routine - flexible according to their needs, but predictable enough to give them a sense of security that they know what's coming next.

Most at 10 weeks will still need 4 naps a day - 3 long ones (1.5hrs plus) and a short one, and we'd aim for a 12 hour day and a 12 hour night. A typical routine might go

7am awake and milk
8.20 nap
10am awake and milk
11.30 nap
1pm awake and milk
2.30pm nap
4pm awake and milk
5.30pm catnap 30 mins
6pm awake
6.45 last milk
7pm asleep for the night
10.30pm dreamfeed

Obviously timings are flexible so if a nap is short the next nap is sooner.

[huby]

I'm going to try getting her back on  a routine. I think the 1.5 hour naps are a bit tricky to sschedule in, and I'd prefer a longer nap in the afternoon to take place, and the others maybe slightly shorter - I find EASY in this was can be too prescriptive and also it becomes impossible to get out of the house this way no?
My baby also feeds four hourly - is this too long. She seems to be gaining weight perfectly - steady and good weight gain, is on the 50th percentile for growth and doens't seem hungry. What would you suggest is the right amount for a 11 lb formula fed baby?
Also, the nap thing has gone haywire again and she screamed all day. She takes one 45 min nap in the mornings and nothing I try helps after that. She's now screaming downstairs with her dad as I handed her over after five hours of crying from me and her!
Can I use pick up / put down to teach her how to get herself to sleep or is she too young? Thanks

[anna*]

Most babies do better with several long naps and a short one - it's generally considered that long naps are more restorative and therefore better for them - their little brains do a lot of processing of all that they have learned while they are napping. The reason why EASY aims for the same length naps (although in practice it rarely ends up working this way) is because your little girl doesn't know what time it is - so she doesn't know if she's 'supposed' to be having a short nap or a long one. It could be easier to encourage all naps to be as long as possible, but also encourage her to nap in her pram so that she can broadly stick to a routine when you ahve to be out and about. I would DEFINITELy not encourage anyone to be housebound on EASY! That is a recipe for insanity!!

I can't help you with the amounts for formula feed I'm afraid, I've got no experience of it, but I know the ladies on the bottle feeding board could help.

PUPD is only really from 4 months plus, it can make matters worse when they're younger because it can be really stimulating for them. How are you settling her for naps right now?

[huby]

hi there,
Well, it's a real problem - the truth of the matter is, I can't settle her for naps. There is actually someone out there selling a 'sleep system' using Tracey's shhh pat method of pick up put down and a version called pick up / put down / cry down, so suppose that's a little concerning!
At the mo, she's not napping. She was responding to having her moses basket gently rocked, while putting her in it drowsy but awake but it's not working for naps and she can't self settle so much so she wakes up after evry 45 min cycle - whether she's in the pram, car seat, swing, moses basket and never has more than two 45 min naps a day if I'm lucky. I have a baby that cries all day after her morning 45 min nap but refuses to nap. I've tried making sure her time awake is only 1.5 hours or even less something or more and have also tried putting her in a sling, but she just does the seven mile stare thing and then cries from tiredness. I'm at my the end of my tether and am now spending most of my days in tears, along with my daughter.
I have no support during the days either and the best anyone can suggest is wait until she's older and try controlled crying. Sigh.
So on the whole, no naps! Help!!

[anna*]

How old is she now?

[huby]

she'll be 11 weeks on sunday

[anna*]

I can't remember if you've tried shush-pat or not - here's my blurb on it, it's quite detailed, but the difference in it being successful or not is in getting it right and sticking with it. http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=141579.msg1557805#msg1557805 (apologies if I've posted this all to you before, but can't remember what we have and haven't tried)

The other thing to rule out is whether she is in any pain or discomfort ie from reflux?

By FAR the biggest factor in how much they fight sleep is getting the awake time right. At this age I would try to make sure (I know it is difficult) that she is never awake for longer than 1hr and 20 mins - and for now, because she is so OT, I would make that even shorter. So that means I would have her in a darkened nursery, starting to shush-pat (or whatever variation works for her) when she has been awake only around 50 mins. Yes this means you might be tied to the house for a few days while she gets the hang of napping. Once she is in a good routine, it's easier to get out and about because her body will be used to sleeping for longer.

So in summary, the reason she's finding it so hard to sleep, and can't stop crying, is because she is massively overtired.

It's very very common for them to be unable to make the transition between sleep cycles at this age, you might need to stay with her and help her through them with shush-pat. They learn it with practice, and part of it is developmental too.

[huby]

oh really? I didn't know that. So with age and practice, she'll get better?
I tried shhh pat for a while, and the patting seemed to kind of annoy her but kept the shhh. Instead of patting, I rock the moses basket gently.
Any advice on what I should do now, please? Should I stop rocking the moses basket - in which case she cries - so I start again. I'm very confussed indeed. I do shh pat her when she's in my arms as a sleep cue and it seems to work, and then put her down awake in her basket and then shhh and rock the basket. Works a treat at night, but naptimes are hard. The first nap she has is 9am (she's been up since about 7am) so will try for earlier tomorrow.
Should I start rocking her moses basket gently between sleeps cycles - she wakes up bang on 45 mins. I've tried this a few times but she still wakes up fully, eyes wide open and refuses to sleep. DO I need to start doing this before she wakes rather than during?
Also - and sorry for all the questions, but if I'm helping her through a sleep cycle then how will she learn to do it on her own?
Thanks again
Beena

[anna*]

I think trying much earlier for the nap will help. If she doesn't like being patted on the back, you could try a pat on the butt, or a back rub, or stroking her head. Rocking the Moses basket is fine if it works but you don't want to have that be a great sleep cue for her and then when she gets too big for the basket and go into a cot that doesn't rock! And yes, you could try going back to her and start to quietly shush and gently pat/rock (whatever your'e using) when she's been asleep about 40 mins - to try to gently ease her through the transition.

Helping them through it usually doesn't become a prop, because with any luck they don't fully wake. It's about training their little bodies that they can come into a light sleep and keep their eyes closed. Around 5-6 months it starts to get easier, 4 months is prob the worst age for it. Although anything you can do to help them to extend naps will keep them from getting too overtired.

The other thing to remember about awake times is that 1hr 20 mins ish is a good amount for her age after a long nap. So say she wakes up at 7, has a nap at 8.15 but only sleeps 45 mins (wakes at 9) and you can't get her back to sleep, then her next nap will need to be at 9.45 or 10 - she won't be able to last 1hr 20 after a short nap without getting overtired.

I hope tomorrow is good for you both
a
x

[huby]

Thanks  v much indeed. I am really worried about her development and not getting enough naps. I feel very guilty that I'm not doing things right and I should have taught her to self soothe by now.
I will perhaps try some of the EASY routine, but my little one is on a 4 hour bottle feeding schedule and doing really well on it- steady weight gain and so on, so I'm not sure how I'd work the activity times into that?
Also, will try for the 8.15 nap, but usually takes me about 45 mins to get her fed and changed, so will that be just 15 mins and then asleep again?
I have tried ssshhh patting her but she didn't settle too well with it. I do use it as one of the cues - shh and pat while holding her, and then down awake and then rocking basket as the patting seemed to annoy her.
PErhaps just holding her will help. It all becomes so so difficult once she's tired as she fights sleep and just cries when the sleep cues start.
I will try and reduce her A time tomorrow and also help her with the transition and report back.
Thanks for your support.
I also need to find something to replace the rocking - I think she likes the movement though. Sigh.

[anna*]

((((hugs)))) don't feel guilty. It's nothing you're doing wrong, it's just some babies do it easily and some find it hard, and some mums make the effort and others don't.  I'd put a post up on the Bottle Feeding board about feeding routines fitting into your EASY, because I never bottle fed so I really wouldn't be able to advise on it at all.

Don't worry about the super short A time first thing. At this age, sleep is the most important thing. As she gets older she'll manage longer A times, it is such a short time that they are this little. It feels like forever but it will fly by. So yes, for the first A, 15 mins staring at mummy is plenty of activity.

If the pat doesn't work for her, you can try patting her butt instead of her back, or just holding a hand firmly on her back. With my LO, we had to start winding him down before he yawned or showed any tired signs, otherwise he was already OT before we started.

I hope you've had a good day today.