Re: 5 months: first time I try PU/PD and patt/shh (from Belgium)

[huby]

hi

my little baby is nine weeks. She used to nap during the days like a dream and sleep well during the nights too (waking once for a feed). I am adopting elements of BW - so have taken on sshhh pat for bedtime and it seems to be working. She doens't like being on her side - so I lay her on her back and pat her tummy
Mostly I have to pat and sshhh her while I'm holding her - put her in her moses basket while drowsey and then continue shhh patting her to sleep in the basket.
BUT I can#t for love nor money get her to nap anymore during the day. I tried her shhh pat, closing the curtians, swaddling, putting her down when she yawns and so on and she fights and fights it until she gets overtired and then cries the house down. This is getting me and her down and has been going on for days. She won't sleep during the day anymore - at all, unless it's perhaps once for say, 10 or 15 mins max.

pleas ehelp x

[anna*]

Hi there. At nine weeks, the hardest thing is to get them down quickly enough. It may be that even the first yawn is too late, so she is already overtired and fighting sleep. How long is she awake in the morning before you start shushpat for her first nap? Is there anything else you can use to get her to sleep, ie having her sleep on you, feed to sleep, car ride, pram ride, rock to sleep?

[huby]

hi
she's stopped sleeping as well now she refuses to nap in the day. i tried sss pat this evening and it took forever as well. and she cried all day when she was tired - so stressful. this morning she got up at 6.30 instead of her usual 8.30, and i fed her in bed and tried to get her straight back to sleep again. she fought it a lot, so got her up, nappy change, dressed and then tried again. She cried and cried. Eventually I managed to get her to sleep at 9am, but she only slept for 20 mins and cried. I tried to reswaddle her and get her back to sleep but she wasn't having any of it. Same later the day. I took her out in the car and she slept for half an hour in the car seat today, but woke as soon as I got home. She doesn't sleep in the pram anymore and not often in the sling. I alwasy thought that if I'd teach her to sleep in the sling - she'd get confussed with ssshhh pat, and would always want the sling and never her mosses basket.
ALso how do I get her down before she gets overtired. She's a nightmare for tears in the evening and I can'tget her to settle. Even moved her bedtime forward by an hour tonight - but she still cried all the way through a quick change and massage, which she's not done before...the problem is getting worse.
She used to sleep for hours during the day and now is refusing to and getting very, very tired and crying like there's no tomorrow. I'm a first time parent and feel completely overwhelmed by all of this.

[anna*]

OK I am hoping we will get some more eyes on this. When you do shush-pat, how long do you try it for before you give up? It can take a while. You do it for 45 mins, and if they are not settling yet you take a short break to change nappy, feed, then start the whole nap routine again right from the 4S's wind-down.

Your baby is beautiful - please keep posting, we will help you to figure this out.

(PS I'm in London too!)

[huby]

Thank you. She has big brown eyes that make you think butter woudln't melt the little madam.

Quick question - when the shhh pat doesn't work - do I pick her up and shhh pat her back to being drowsy again and then put her in the moses basket, or do I just keep shhh patting even though she's mega alert and coooing in her basket? When is it ok to pick up? I generally shhh pat her until she's drowsy and then put her into her basket and then continue until she's asleep...but sometimes it wakes her totally up. When do I pick up?

I will take her to get weighed at the clinic today and see if they think I'm feeding her enough as well.

Thanks for caring.

Where abouts in London are you - I'm in BArnet 

[anna*]

I'm in W12 - Shepherds Bush. Here's a really detailed post I wrote about shush-pat - have a read through and let me know if it's all clear: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=141579.msg1557805#msg1557805

Here's a couple more links you might find useful: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=65842.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64161.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64277.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85500.0

[huby]

the health visitor said to put her in her mosses basket and pat her or rub her tummy when she's tired. If she cries - keep patting / rubbing/ singing ...whatever so she knows your there but doesn't see you. If she cries let her, but only for a minute while still patting. The pick her up. Then calm her down and try again...let her cry for two mins this time while still patting her and if she's still crying,m pick her up, calm her down and try again. what's not clear to me is do i pick up or not. it did seem to work when i tried it today, But she woke up after 20 mins and by then it was her feeding time nearly.

[anna*]

If she's crying hard and not settling with you patting/rubbing her in her basket, then pick her up. Keep on shush-patting until she is completely calm, then lay her down and continue again. When you shush-pat her to sleep, it's really important to continue for more than 20 mins after she falls asleep. Is she in a nice tight swaddle? Were those links any use to you?

I agree with your HV and with the BW that it's ideal for hre to sleep in her basket. BUT if she's not sleeping there, it's more important that she sleeps somewhere, anywhere, and then go back to shush-pat when she's had a bit more rest.

[huby]

Hello me again...I've got her to sleep twice now - using shhh patt and gently rocking her moses basket. She's there now. I kept my hand on her the first time all through, but she still woke despite the shhh patting. But if I'm there to rock the moses basket - that seems to work for her and she evetually falls back to sleep....
so I'm very relived.
Should I have regular nap times - I'm often out and about - how would it work in those cases.
I didn't swaddle her or draw the curtains during daytime, I want her to know the difference between day naps and nighttime sleep.
Also, how many naps do you think she needs a day - she's nine weeks as mentioned and weighs a good 5kg. Finally, sorry - so many questions but between you and my HV, I'm getting somewhere and remarkably quickly too...
how do I keep her from waking up after 25, 30 mins?

Thanks very much again
Beena

[anna*]

That's great!

The EASY routine isn't about set nap times - but having said that it is definitely good to know how much awake time she can handle and trying to be home for at least some of her naps every day. For the first few days on EASY you may want to stay home while she catches up on sleep and gets the hang of the routine.

At 2.5months a typical (and ideal) routine might look something like this. The important thing to remember is that these awake times are maximums. If she is showing tired signs before the S time here, she needs to go to sleep. Also, if any of her naps are shorter than what's written here, she'll need a shorter A time afterwards. You might be surprised at how much sleep she needs.

E/A: 7am milk followed quiet activity, then start wind-down, swaddle, shush-pat so she can be asleep
S: 8.15 nap
E/A: wake up 10am milk then activity as above
S: 11.20am nap
E/A: wake up 1pm milk then activity as above
S: 2.20pm nap
E/A: wake up 4pm milk then activity as above
S: 5.20pm short nap
A: wake up at 6pm, start bath/bed routine
E: 6.40 last milk
S: asleep for the night 7pm
Dreamfeed at 10.30pm

Longer naps is a learned skill. If you keep trying to get the A time right, and help her to sleep longer whenever you can, she will eventually learn to do it for herself.

[~Sara~]

Hi there!!  I just wanted to chime in real quick and say that darkening the room during the day does wonders for our DS's naps.  They generally don't get day and night confused on an EASY routine: during the day, you don't let them sleep past an E time, and at night you don't wake them...it helps establish the right biorhythms.  I also know MANY moms on here who darken their LO's room with great success, too.  As the day winds down, babies' cortisol levels start dropping, signaling nighttime to them.  They have higher levels during the day...so if you think that darkening the room will help her, try it!  As long as you stick to the EASY idea, your LO should keep her days and nights straight   Hth!

[anna*]

Yes! I agree with Sara. As she gets older she will almost certainly need the room darkened, and swaddling her for naps will help her to get past that 25-30 mins point too.

[huby]

hi there
will try darkening room - but would that not mean she associates dark with sleeping and will only sleep when and where it's dark.
I have no choice - I have to be out and about because of certain personal issues and have to take Lillia with me most of the time. Not always though.
Also, she's on a four hour bottle fed schedule for food - how would this fit into the napping and eating cycle - sorry to be such a pain - I am not following EASY, but to adopt some bits of it would suit me.
Thanks

[anna*]

Why not give EASY a try? What parts do you want to adopt? It's hard for us to advise on only certain bits, because they all effect each other - for example their feeding effects their  daytime naps and their naps affect their night sleep - you can't change any one thing in isolation without it affecting other areas.

No it won't mean she'll only sleep when it's dark, but it is true that when they hit a certain age they can start to find it very difficult to sleep when there is stuff to look at. It is like they literally can't close their eyes. Of course they will eventually pass out from exhaustion but that is not what we want. If you have to take her out you can time it with her naps so that she can sleep in her pram.

We'd definitely advise three hourly feeding at this age, mostly because of the need for short awake times and long naps. If you feed less frequently, it's going to mean cutting those naps short.

[~Sara~]

Hi Beena--Just wondering how things have been going for you these past few days?