Night time, 1 long and 2 short sleeps

[happy09]

Hi There, just need some advice regarding my 7 week old baby boy.  I have him on the EASY routine for over 2 weeks - 7,10, 1 etc.  Before we put him on the routine he was already sleeping from 11pm until 3am and then nearly 7am.  He is a very hungry baby and was barely napping during the day. I changed his formula to the hungrier formula 1 week ago.  He naps during the day now for about 40-60mins.  His Activity is about 2 hours. He gets bottle at 10am and I put him down at about 11:30/40 as he starts to get tired and hes asleep himself by about 12.  I had breastfed him for 3 weeks after he was born.

My question is: Should I try and get the long nap (fed at 6pm, asleep at 8pm and awake at 11pm) changed for after the 11pm feed or will things fall into place themselves?
For the last few nights we feed him at 6pm.  He is asleep in his crib upstairs about 8pm and can sleep until 11pm.  He gets his 7oz bottle.  He goes down until 3am.  He takes 6-7oz at that feed.  He then goes until anytime after 6:30am.  However, sometimes he is mooching and winging after 5am and this might continue until his next feed which i would give anytime after 6:30.  Sometimes he may sleep a bit or not at all.  I was doing  the cluster feeding but we just stopped doing them as he was getting sleepy after 6pm bottle.  We left him to see what would happen and he slept until 11pm or just after.  He used to be extremely sleepy when dreamfeeding if he got a bottle at 8pm.

Also regarding the dream feed.  Do you wait until the baby makes its first sound or do you literally feed them in their sleep (tried that 2 nights ago and he vomited it all up after 3ozs).

Thanks

[becky1969]

First, let's fix those naps.  They are too short and barely restorative.

Your A time is too long.  A tthis age, babies are usually only awake for about 1h15.  Yours is awake for 2 hours which is what a 5 month old can do.  so, shorten A time (a time starts when they open their eyes and stops when they close their eyes for next sleep period).

Once you fix those naps then we can work out the timing of the rest.

[happy09]

Tomorrow I will try and keep his activity shorter.  Should I start timing his activity from the time he wakes even if its e.g. 30 mins before a feed?  Below is an example of his EASY routine.

Today after his 7 and 10 am feed he fell asleep by 1hour after feeding but generally his activity is longer than 1 hour.  He woke early for both feeds.
Today
He woke at 3am-fed, sleep no problem.
He woke at 5am, mooching etc. Turned him in crib. He still continued to mooch a little but slept until 6:30.
I included above as he was awake at 5am. 

This is some of his EASY routine from today:
Fed at 6:50.  We kept him in his crib so he wouldn't have had much stimulation (maybe this is wrong).  He was sleepy on the bottle.
Sleep at 8am ish
He slept for 45mins
I tried Shh/Pat and using pacifier and got until 9:30.
When i picked him up and started getting his bottle ready he was yawning but not upset.

Fed him 10am.
Asleep shortly after 11.
He was awake at 12:15.  I gave him some cooled boiled water.  My GP said I should try to give him some as he is nearly getting too much formula!!

Fed him 1pm (he took slightly less due to having some water beforehand)
Sleep after 3.
Awake after 4.

Fed 4
He never slept

Fed 6
Asleep 8:10pm

I had wondered if the short naps were due to him not being able to get back to sleep after the 45min sleep or due to under stimulation.  He is a very alert baby.
We stopped the cluster feeding at 6 and 8 by accident (he was exhausted after travelling as we had a GP appointment).  I am continuing with giving him a bottle at 6pm but its definitely 8pm before hes asleep.  This happened the last 3 evenings.  He will then need to be fed again about 11. 

Thanks

[becky1969]

I wouldn't keep him in the crib to avoid stimulation.  Then he just gets confused about when the sleep periods are.  Crib should ONLY be associated with sleeping, never with awake time.

We *always* count awake time from the moment their eyes open; doesn't matter when you feed them.  Feeding time is part of the A time.  Think of it this way: a baby is like a time bomb.    When they wake up, their ticker starts and they've only got so much time (A time) until they explode.  At this age, we're talking around 1h10-1h15 before he explodes. 

Also, if you are trying to extend a short nap, don't try for more than 30 minutes.  After that baby gets hungry and more tired and it just makes the routine even more off track.



I'm a little worried about giving a baby water.  If he's hungry, he's hungry! But I understand your doctor told you that.  The problem is that water isn't going to help baby with hunger and you may end up not getting any sleep because baby is genuinely hungry.  I'm not sure what 'too much' formula is.  At that age my son was getting about 30 oz per day.  Where is your child with oz?

[happy09]

Thanks Becky 1969.  Things a bit different today but good.  He is on 7oz every 3 hours of the hungry baby food.  I have him on the EASY schedule so 7, 10, 1, 4, 6 (up to 4oz), 8, 11, 3 (he wakes for feed).  He never refuses a bottle and is well able to drink 7oz and never throws it up.  Also, i was timing until he fell asleep not until he started to close his eyes so his activity was probably a little on the long side still.
Anyhow, i really cut back on the Activity with him today and concentrated on it all.  He had 1 less bottle today as he was asleep.  I have him the EASY routine for 4 weeks (since he was 3 weeks) but I am adhering to it more for over 3 weeks.  I found the 3 hour routine really good because if he didnt nap or took a very short nap between feeds I always fed him every 3 hours.
Yesterday
6pm Feed
7:30 Sleep (he was actually asleep at 8pm)
10:50pm Dream feed
4am He woke for feed
5:20 He was mooching in his crib, put in pacifier.  Tried shh/pat.  He stopped after 20 mins but started again about 6:20.  Tried pacifier etc again but to no avail.  He still had his eyes closed.

Today
6:50 Eat and played with him on changing unit when changing nappy
8:10 Sleep (I actually started swaddling him again today.  He used to really hate it but I started again this morning)
He slept until 9:20 after falling asleep at 8:30.  Tried shh/pat.  He never opened his eyes.  He continued to doze a little but not wake up or open his eyes, bit moochy!! 

10:40 Eat
12:10 Sleep  He slept for 45 mins. 

2:40 pm Eat (he had to have a bath due to a really dirty nappy)
4pm Sleep

5:30 He woke. 6pm Eat
7:15 Sleep.
Will see how the rest of the night goes!!!

What i was wondering about the crib was: should i put him to sleep in it after his first feed ie 7am or get him up and bring him downstairs and give it to him there.  He was sleepy on bottle that morning so I just kept him upstairs and didnt stimulate him much.  I wasnt trying to not stimulate him -just wondering if he wanted to start his day at 7am or wait until after his next feed.  I really do feel as though i made some progress today.  I realise now I was reading his cues wrong too.  Sometimes if he let out a cry during Activity I thought it was because he was bored (how bad am I).  Its all a learning curve.  I really want to put the ground work in now so that it helps him when hes older.  Im not going to give him the cooled boiled water as he is just too hungry at the next feed.  My GP felt that he was getting too many ozs.  Hes a big baby but hes long as height is in our families!
Thanks for your help.  Much appreciated.

[becky1969]

I had a gigantic baby too.  And my family is small! He was 100+ percentile for both height and weight up until 6 months old.  He weighed 24 lbs at 6 months (18 lbs at 4 months).  but you know what? After taht he really slowed down.  He only ways 4 lbs more than he did at 6 months old and he's almost 4 YEARS old!!! So, what did i learn? Babies really know what they're doing in the food dept.  My kid NEEDED all that fat as a baby b/c as a toddler he burned it all up! LOL!

Much better love! But I definitely see we've got too long of A times still.

For instance, when he woke  at 5:20 and was groany until 6:20 or so, I dont' know that he was actually sleeping.  The very best case scenario is he woke at 6:20.  In which case, 8:10 was WAY too late.  Remember, we're aiming for 1h15.  I would have started by day at 6:20 and put him down for a nap at 7:30.

Then, at the 8:10 sleep, he woke at 9;20 and you didn't put him back down for nap until 12:10.  nearly 3 hours so again too long.  I have a feeling you're considering your sleep extention time as 'sleep', but he's not TRULY sleeping.  Unless I'm misunderstanding.  In fact, I'm not sure why you're giving paci if his eyes are closed?


So perhaps we need to talk about mantra crying.  Babies often cry out or in their sleep.  It's how they relax themselves.  A mantra cry is different for every baby, but the uniting quality is that it is a monotone "wah-wah-wah" sort of sound.  It's not a WAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!! Mommy I need you!" cry.  We respond to those! But mantra cries we leave them to it because often they will put themselves back to sleep.  I wonder if you are hearing him fuss-fuss and trying to 'put him back to sleep' when really he IS asleep and all you're doing is waking him up! LOL! So, why don't you describe what's going on and we'll see if we can't figure it out! 

OK.  Then after the 12:10-12:55 sleep he didn't go down for  nap until 4 pm!!!! That's ANOTHER 3 hours! Really, it needs to be 1h15.  Oh wait -- I think I see the problem: you are counting A time after eating? Or when eating starts?? No, it's when they wake up.  Doesn't matter when you feed them, it matters when their eyes open.  Then when their eyes close A time ends.

So, in the 12:10 instance: he woke at 12:55.  You should have started your wind down at 1:55 so that hopefully he's asleep by 2:10.  Make sense?

[happy09]

Thanks Becky-I'm taking everything in that you are saying.  Yesterday was a really bad day from 10am on so I am not going to go into a lot of detail about it!!!  After 7am feed things were fine.  He woke at 9:30.  At 10am feed he had a really dirty nappy so I had to give him a bath.  Gave him rest of his bottle.  He then had another dirty nappy.  It was passed 11:30.  Tried to put him down etc....  He did sleep a little, woke early and it just continued from there.  He was overtired and just found it hard to settle and sleep after that.  However, he was very good during the night.  Feed at 6pm and he was literally asleep up in his crib by 7:30.  The dream feed (11pm) was hard as he was extremely sleepy.  We changed his nappy at the start just to rouse him a little.  We have to change his nappy for every feed otherwise he will get wet (probably due to volume he is drinking).  He woke at 3 for his next feed.  Swaddled him.  He woke 6:55am.  He was a little moochy up to 7am but not much!!

So this morning, fed him, played with him while changing nappy.  His eyes started to close 8:20.  He let his pacifier out, opened his eyes and was moving his head trying to get it.  Put it back in at 8:39 and he is asleep since (fingers crossed).  Actually, 9:15 he got his arm out of swaddle and is moving around for pacifier and winging.  Put it in but its still continuing.  Hes letting it out and seems to need it back in again.  9:25 I just had to pick him up as he started crying for pacifier as it was out and just got very upset.  He might be relying on pacifier to get to sleep.

I have noticed the cries and I probably am going to him during the day thinking he needs attention.  I noticed last night after I put him in the crib after his 6pm feed that he was letting out a lot of cries.  As I was downstairs listening and watching on baby video monitor I could see he was ok.  So I must work on that during the day-have started to just watch and see what he does and if he looks for pacifier or not.  Sometimes I try to put the pacifier in during the day when he starts to mooch/cry, as sometimes he might open his eyes and start moving trying to put it back in. 

I wont be giving him anymore cooled boiled water as this little boy does want his food!!   I am wondering if he is full enough going to sleep so I am thinking about changing the brand of formula he is on, people say there is a slightly richer one. I cant put anymore in the bottles now as hes getting 7oz and by the time you add in the scoops etc the bottle is full.  I am feeding him 7, 10, 1, 4 and then at 6.  The reason I feed him at 6 is because for the last 4 days he takes a bottle at 6, we put him up in his crib and then feed him before 11pm.  It happened accidentally but now I just keep going with it.  Do you think those feed times are ok?

Boys are hungrier.  Its good that he and yours were good feeders (its better than them not feeding).  As I am about to post this he is still looking for paci and grunting and his eyes are closed.  This is probably start of activity time for next feed?

Thanks (will see how rest of day goes)