Another episode of 2-1 transition.....please help-10 months

[greenteamomma]

My LO is 10 months old and is in the 2-1 transition.  We have reduced the morning nap to 30 mins.  Recently he has started taking shorter pm naps so I reduced the morning nap to 20 mins.  Yesterday HE woke after 15 mins!  I put him down early and had to wake him at 3:20.  He had been sleeping for 2.5 hrs.  Maybe I shouldn't have woken him.  He refused to go to bed till way past 8pm.  He can usually handle just a little over 4 hrs of A time.  He also woke at 10:00 and was so hard to settle, not like him.l
What should I do?  Keep that nap at 15 mins as he did yesterday?

Yesterday was like this?
wake 6:20ish
nap 10:00 to 10:15
nap 12:50 to 3:20
bed at 7:20...would not settle down in our arms as usual, put him down...did not settle till about 8:15.

Please help, he is young for the 2-1 transition.....

[Mashi]

Yes, he is very young to be that far in the transition! Wow!  But, there are other moms on here who have moved to one nap very early as well, so you are not alone (sorry I'm not one of them!)

The big thing that stands out at me is the 13 hour day.   So while you say he can handle 4 hours after that 2.5 hour afternoon nap, having it at the end of the day when he's already had loads of A time at other points in the day, it may just be too much for him at that time of day - usually a 12 hour day is a good base, and while we were doing a 13 hour day when DS was 10 months old, he was on two naps and so had two good long restorative sleeps to rest him up form the long A times. And when we finally moved to one nap (only a few weeks ago!) our days are never longer than 12 hours, many days only 11 - 11.5 hours because he only gets that one sleep period.  Does that make sense?

So with that in mind, and with that 10pm waking, it seems to be that he was having some bedtime resistance because he was OT by the time bed came around.

Ideally with the short morning nap, in the 2-1 switch, it's great if you can get LO to sleep when they are UT, so that they aren't in NEED of a good sleep....then when you are waking them it's not as hard on them and they are more rested from having been less tired.   So, with that in mind, do you think you could get him to go down earlier in the morning for his short nap?

So it might look something like this --

wake 620ish
nap 1 930 - 945
nap 2 1230 - 245
bed 645

It cuts about 45 minutes off of his total day and allows for a bit longer time to get a good 11.5 - 12 hour nightsleep in. 

What do you think?

[greenteamomma]

I agree with what you are saying and actually had a similar routine to what you posted for yourself somewhere here before.  Liz had led me to it!  
If I can give you some background....We had been having EW (5:00) and that first nap was pretty late for a long time.  The EW stopped first and then I finally managed to get him down for 9:45 again.  For the last two weeks, we were having a 11.45 nights which we had never ever had before.  So it looked like this:
Wake 6:45
nap 9:45 to 10:15 I woke him
Nap 1:30 ish to 3:30 or 3:45
Bed 7:10ish
It was sweet.  He has never slept in this long before and has always had 11 hr nights since he's born.  With EW, he would have 10 hr or 10.5 hr nights.  He is a baby who needs to be sleepy to sleep or he just goes goes goes.  This is all since  he became mobile.  If he is UT when he naps, he doesn't sleep long.  I have tried the shorter A time and it usually backfired in the past.  I'm not wanting to dissagree just letting you know my LO ways.  Wit this in mind, this is what has been happening.  
He resently started not wanting to go down for the first nap until 10:00 and was shortening his naps to 1.5.  Even though we tried to put him down earlier to bed since he waking early from his second nap, he was resisting and the 4 hrs of A time before bed begun.  I inquired about what to do with the shorter pm nap (on here) and got a variety of answers .  Most said to push 15 minutes and cut 15 minutes.  I wanted to keep the 2 naps as long as I could (because of his age) so I started to wake him after 25 mintues instead of 30 but not changing anything else.  It worked for a little while and then yesterday, he went down late for his am nap, at 10:00 but woke after 15 minutes?!!?!?!  It could have been just a coincidence.  That is also why he had the NW at 10:00.  I'm pretty sure. 
I'm editing to add he resisted his nap, or would not go down until 9:55.  I'm giving him 25 mins then I'll wake him.   Momma's not ready for 15 mins yet! 
What do you think about all this? 

[greenteamomma]

Oh, I am losing my mind again with these naps.  I still don't see what people who don't do BW do.  We have atleast some "secrets" and its so complicated to find that sweet spot!  I'm so discouraged and tired....
I gave LO a little under 25 minutes of nap to catch up since he had a hard night and was resisting his nap and I had resistance for the pm nap too.  I tried for 3 hrs of A time but it was more like 3 hrs 25 mins....
It looks like he needs a shorter nap.  As I said above I was reluctant due to his age but it seems inevitable now.  I also tried Mashi to put him down UT even though I disagreed with you.  It does not work!

[Mashi]

Do you think that any of this nap resistance is OT?  OT can really start looking a lot like UT a lot of the time, especially with nap resistance. 

How much total sleep is he getting in a 24 hour period?  Judging on your first post it is looking to me like it is only 12ish hours which is not enough for a 10 month old, even a low sleep needs 10 month old!  14h - 15h would be more reasonable ....  and with the 10 hour night last night it does scream out to me to be OT. So I think that cutting the A times may give you nap resistance but then my next thought is to cut the A time even MORE!    Often that resistance comes because the sleep window is already past and the adrenaline has kicked in and gotten LO too wound up to sleep, he just wants to play play play!

But, if you are fully 100% not able to get him down earlier, then my opinion is that you need to give him a longer morning nap in order to break an OT spell - so for a day or two let him sleep 45 minutes in the morning. Get him rested. So your day might then look like this

wake 615
nap 1 1015 - 1100
nap 2 245 - 400
bed 730

This way he is going to bed more rested - tbh, I would be surprised if he made it those full A times ...the old adage of "good sleep begets good sleep" and after he is starting to get a good sleep in the morning he may very well want to go down by 2pm in the afternoon and be ready for bed at 7pm.

The 15 minute nap is VERY hard on LOs, especially when he is this young. It is not a full sleep cycle, all it is doing is getting him into a deep sleep and as soon as he has hit that level of deep sleep he is being yanked out of it. He's not getting any real benefit from it, and I think that it may be doing more harm than good... and hence him waking on his own at 15 minutes.  I do think that when 30 minutes gets to be too long, most LOs don't last on that 15-20 minute morning nap for very long before they drop to one nap. And then the best way is often to do one day with 2 naps and one day with 1 nap, which keeps the OT at bay but also eliminates needing that 15ish minute nap.

I do think that at 10 months he probably can handle at least a 30 minute morning nap and still get a good afternoon nap in....what was happening that you had to cut it to 15 so soon? Just curious!

[greenteamomma]

Thanks for the quick reply Mashi! 
Yesterday's nap resistance was OT for sure, but at nap times, I'm not too sure.  He is slowwwlllly pushing all his A times the last little while. 
HAHAH , lets get one thing straight, I don't want him to change his routine and I didn't cut his nap to 15 minutes.  He woke yesterday after 15 minutes.  I was doing 30 minutes and would still like him to be doing 30 minutes.  The problem is he is resisting going down more and more.  It can't be OT if he used to go down at these times and had no problems and was STTN and sleeping in (had to wake him sometimes).  HE is pushing his A times.  I am trying to get him down from 9:30 to 10:00 to get him to sleep for 30 minutes.  Then since he waited so long, the pm nap is late, say 1:45 ish (I try from for 30 minutes).  He resently started only sleeps 1hr 30 mins.  Isn't that too short a long nap?
As far as total sleep time, prior to yesterday he was doing 11.5 hr nights plus at least 2.5 hrs of day time sleep.  If he was cutting that pm nap on his own, which he has been lately, he lost about 30-40 mins.  That is why I reduced his am nap by 5 minutes ONLY.  I don't want him to be on one nap and want him to do two naps!   
Since 8 months, he has needed more A time then most and had to have the morning nap cut and cut and cut or we had nap refusal!  That is why we are where we are now.  Everyone has been so helpfull and managed to get me through this last time.  I can't even find routines to review since he's so young to be doing this.  Sorry for the rant but this is just ridiculous.  It doesn't seem like it has to be so complicated and what did people do without bw???

[Mashi]

Ok, lots of things in there you've clarified that I didn't understand from your first post!!

The problem is he is resisting going down more and more.  It can't be OT if he used to go down at these times and had no problems and was STTN and sleeping in (had to wake him sometimes). 

I don't agree with this...I don't think you can say that with all certainty...that it can't be OT just because he used to go down at that time.  Babies change, sleep needs change, and so on.  With teething for instance I know that many parents find drastically reduced A times, and if you don't reduce the As then massive OT kicks in, so that is just one example. Also, previously when he was handling these longer A times it could have been an OT cycle where he was resisting naps and it looked like longer As, but was really OT, iykwim?  And, if you were having to wake him up in the mornings, then that also could have either caused some OT and/or it to me shows that he wasn't getting enough daytime sleep if he was going to bed early enough but still sleeping more than he really should have been at night. 

HE is pushing his A times.  I am trying to get him down from 9:30 to 10:00 to get him to sleep for 30 minutes.  Then since he waited so long, the pm nap is late, say 1:45 ish (I try from for 30 minutes).  He resently started only sleeps 1hr 30 mins.  Isn't that too short a long nap?

I don't agree that 145 is late for an afternoon nap, esp not for his age. Not at all.  And 1hr30 minutes, no that is not too short. It's only too short if his morning nap is too short - if he is doing say 30-40 minutes for his morning nap and sleeping a good 12 hour night, then no, 1.5 hours is not too short for an afternoon nap!!

As far as total sleep time, prior to yesterday he was doing 11.5 hr nights plus at least 2.5 hrs of day time sleep.  If he was cutting that pm nap on his own, which he has been lately, he lost about 30-40 mins.  That is why I reduced his am nap by 5 minutes ONLY.  I don't want him to be on one nap and want him to do two naps!   

OK so then 14 hours, that's great. I don't think that dropping the morning nap by 5 minutes will get much of a result, it is such a small amount of time that I would leave him to hit the 30 minute mark. 

Hitting 4 hours of A time at 10 months is not abnormal or unusual, so there is nothing "off" with what he is doing A time wise.  It is just a matter of making sure that he gets his sleep in with the long A times or OT builds up quickly.  So in that sense I don't think really it is a case of "he's too young to be doing this" because his A time isn't all that strange, it's just that there is something affecting his sleep. And I am inclined to believe it is not just a case of 2-1 switch.

A few other things that cross my mind:

*teething can disrupt sleep in massive amounts, NWs, EWs, nap refusals, short naps, etc.  Teething can also cause massive drops in A time as I said above and this can lead to OT creeping in very quickly
*developmental leaps such as walking can affect sleep significantly - LOs don't want to go down for naps no matter how tired they are because they want to practice their new skills. By the time they are ready to settle they have worked themselves into OT.
* separation anxiety can also kick in at nap time and bedtime and lead to lots of sleep refusals!

So it may not JUST be a case of LO is extending his A times, there may be lots of other factors going on that are affecting his sleep at this age. Do you think any of this is possible?

[greenteamomma]

Mashimar, I agree with most of what you said but I am not sure what I should be doing.  I have a few comments and questions.

I didn't know that a 1hr and 30 min nap was "ok".  I thought that was indicative of needing to tweak the routine since his morning nap is so short. Since he's so young, I thought he would need more day sleep. 

If his A times and his napping routine is "normal" for his age, why did you mention in one of your posts that he is young to be that far into transitioning? 

I think you are right about the 1:45 being a good time to go down.  I think I mixed the routines a little while posting.  When he was going down at that time, it was a good routine.  The other day during one of his refusals he was past 2:15 or so with the same time morning nap.  I gave the wrong example.  Disregard that comment please.

Of course I agree that there is something developmental going on.  It is for certain SA, teething and standing.  I know those things are present all the time in various degrees.  Thank you for reminding me to consider those as reasons why his A time is moving around. 

 I just need some advice, what to do, what to look for....WHEN does the nap routine change solidly based on this or that.  Just, could you offer me some ideas.  I'm having a bit of a rough mommy time right now...I'll post in the appropriate board about that and spare you 

[Mashi]

If his A times and his napping routine is "normal" for his age, why did you mention in one of your posts that he is young to be that far into transitioning?

Sorry I am not always clear in my writing, I know what I am thinking and know what I mean and dont always word it so clearly! 

I don't think his napping routine is appropriate, but I think that 4h of A time is not abnormal.  Certainly many are on less A time at that age, prob most, but def there are many on 4h at that age.  BUT to be so far into transitioning that he is only doing a 15 minute morning nap is way young....although then reading your later posts I think I had read that wrong as you said it was just a one off thing?

I think that a 1.5 hour nap is def right for his age but yes when he is doing so little in the morning it is not long enough because then he has not got enough daysleep in him.  BUT I don't think the answer is always to cut the morning nap to make the afternoon nap longer.  It certainly is the right thing to do in some cases, but not all, and I think it can be a fine line with the 2-1 switch to know which is which.  Going to go on his age more than anything, but also some of the things you have described as having happened in the past few days and say that cutting it is NOT the right thing to do in this case. I think that his shorter afternoon nap is not going to get longer by cutting the morning, I think that the way to get more day sleep into him is to give him the extra bit in the morning.

For offering ideas, it is hard for me to put a "routine" idea down that will work for you! I can just give some ideas of what I think is happening and you can see what you agree with and don't agree with!

One thing I would question is if he is for sure doing 4 solids hours of A time consistently, and being happy about it all the time.  As in, are you positive that he is not doing 4 hours because he is just having nap refusal from being OT, and so you are assuming that he is up to 4 hours because that is how long it has taken him to settle the past few days?  If so, that's fine, I just want to check to make sure!  Also, how long has he been doing 4 hours? Maybe he is working his way UP to 4 hours but after a day of it, it shattered him and so he needed to go a bit lower the next day....sort of like older toddlers with days that alternate between one nap and two, they can handle the 5 hours of A time to have a one nap day, but after doing it one day it totally wipes them and so the next day they need to go to two naps/reduced A time. And this can go back & forth for a few weeks until they can consistently handle that 5 hours of A time every single day.  So perhaps he is moving to 4 hours, but because he did it once, or twice or even a few times, doesn't mean that it didn't totally wipe him out and he needs a few days with lower than expected A times to catch up from it.

Does that make sense?

So no advice on WHEN nap routine changes, other than that I personally would not make the first assumption to be that he is way ahead of the game with the 2-1 and A time and jumping A times drastically. I would assume that these things are occurences but not his normal "new" routine. 

I would also say that if you have him down to 15 minutes in the morning, you are probably better off doing a day with one 30 minute morning nap and a shorter afternoon nap, alternated with one day of ONE nap only, at 4.5 hours A time with an early bed.  The thing is, I really do NOT think your LO is ready for that yet, but I do think that is a better option than a consistent 15 minute morning nap and 1.5 hour afternoon nap for a toddler who is at that stage of the 2-1.  Just something to keep in mind.

I think that you might find some success with a morning nap of 30-45 minutes at 3 - 3.5 hours of awake time. I know your gut will be to say that he won't go down at that time, but if you keep the morning low key, send him some sleepy signals nearer that time, or do a wind down and then pop him in his stroller and see if he'll nod off if you go out for a walk.  And then the day would look something more like this

wake 630
nap 945 - 1030
nap 215? - 345
bed 730

What I started finding at this age was getting too stuck on how short the morning nap would be and not looking at the FULL picture of everything - naps, As, nightsleeps, NWs, EWs, mood, development, and so on, and instead just looking ONLY at A times got me into a mess.  I did not cut DS's morning nap CONSISTENTLY until he was 13 months. I first cut it down to 45 minutes when he was 9.5 months but then would have days where I just had to use my instinct and let him sleep 1 hour, or 50 minutes.  And some days I got a shorter PM nap out of that because I had been wrong, but most days my instinct was right. When I was stubborn and insisted that I wake him at whatever length it was cut to, we got OT and then afternoon nap refusal which then just led me to believe he'd had a massive A time jump when in fact it was OT.   Once I cut the nap to 30minutes, I had to sometimes let him go to 45 minutes, again on instinct, for the same reasons. And the same when I went to one nap - every now and again it had to go to two naps.   So I think that just because you have dropped morning nap to 30 min because you were having PM nap problems doesn't mean that he can ALWAYS do 30 min in the morning without OT creeping in on him.

Not sure...is there anything in there that you find useful? Or is it all just ramblings? LOL!

[annette.xx]

wow mashi has given some fab advice here! amazing!...I only wish my instincts were as good!

ok so thought id just chip in as im going through the exact same thing...

my LO is 10 months (nearly!) and is also speeding through the 2;1 transition - or so I thought...

she is down to 30 min nap which has been working beautifully and really sorted out the pm nap...then suddenly the pm nap started getting shorter - I was thinking oh dear UT and time to cut but by looking at her behaviour and EW I am now 100% convinced its OT...

it creeps up on you without even knowing it!

and I know what you mean about the nap refusal being UT cos this is what led me to 30 mins - I thought the rolling and playing and just not being able to fall asleep was defo UT so when I cut to 45 mins and it was still the case - I fast cut down to 30 mins - which was great - but I soon realised that the reason she was sleeping straight away was because she was getting into dead sleep mode cos she was REALLY tired and I tweaked it to 30 mins less A time just to see what difference it made and she still slept for 2 hrs and settled ok which shocked me

and today I am following mashis advice cos I am having EW ...and ive added 15 mins on am nap and had a shorter pm A time by 15 mins - I was convinced that it wouldnt work cos 30 mins less A time is alot but she actually settled for both

my routine is pretty much this (before the EW)...I hope to return to this after the EW goes (if it ever does!!) and then I might look alternating 45 minute nap days to keep OT at bay...

wake 6.30
(3 HRS A TIME)
S - 9.30 - 10
(2 HR 45 A TIME)
S - 12.45 - 2.45
(3 HR 45 A TIME)
S - 6.30

I have read just about every post going with similar ages and short naps and have learnt;

*if you cut am nap try to let them go down for nap UT - so the earliest A time they would allow - I manage 3 hrs - if they go down tired then the 30 mins isnt long enough for them to recover which would make the next A time needing to be super short (bear this is mind if you go over 3 hr 15 first A time)...

*when first nap is shorter than 45 mins the next A time will always be shorter than the first A time - a rule of thumb (really does work for me) is to take your first nap length (30 mins) away from a full nap length (1 hr 30) and then reduce the next A time by the deficit (will be 1 hr) so you take LOs age appropriate A time (id say around 3 hr 45 for you and me) so its 3hr 45 - 1 hr less nap = 2hr 45 mins....HAVE YOU EVER TRIED THIS SHORT SECOND A? ...I was terrified of it but it suprised me!

* the 2;1 transitions that are working all seem to have less A time before the second nap...

anyway dont know if im helping at all - I have big issues with EW so what do I know!! (mind you I now know this is cos i let OT creep up on me - I didnt follow the rules and pushed her to hard!!)

this is so complicated!...and I agree ...what the hell do people who dont use BW do?!...actually I can answer that cos my sister has a 1 year old and she told me he is on one nap already I asked if it was hard and she said no he just started dropping it by himself...I thought wow isnt she a clever mummy - then saw all her posts on facebook about her numerous NW...and she puts him to bed at 9pm just so he wont wake until 6 or 7 am... so I suppose it depends on what people can tolerate! I sure as hell wouldnt want that routine!!!! lol!!

Annette.xx

[Mashi]

*if you cut am nap try to let them go down for nap UT - so the earliest A time they would allow - I manage 3 hrs - if they go down tired then the 30 mins isnt long enough for them to recover which would make the next A time needing to be super short (bear this is mind if you go over 3 hr 15 first A time)...

*when first nap is shorter than 45 mins the next A time will always be shorter than the first A time - a rule of thumb (really does work for me) is to take your first nap length (30 mins) away from a full nap length (1 hr 30) and then reduce the next A time by the deficit (will be 1 hr) so you take LOs age appropriate A time (id say around 3 hr 45 for you and me) so its 3hr 45 - 1 hr less nap = 2hr 45 mins....HAVE YOU EVER TRIED THIS SHORT SECOND A? ...I was terrified of it but it suprised me!

Both very sensible good notes, annette.  Esp the first on putting them down UT if you are going to cut the nap short.

Another thing that I htink is VERY important to keep in mind is that at 9/10 months or so, there is a CHANGE in nap needs.  Less day sleep is needed, timings change and so on. This is NOT the 2-1 switch.  It is simply a change in nap needs at 9/10 months.  "Same-same but different" really.  If you get it in your mind that you are heading into 2-1 territory then I find mothers tend to do things too quickly, get too antsy for that short morning nap and expect a huge afternoon nap (which does NOT happen) and you have your mind in 14-15month old territory.  Can cause major problems.  Instead, think of it as a tweak, a change in sleep needs that happens at this age, and don't start cutting morning nap so much and be insistent that it needs to stay that low, as we must be when we enter full-on 2-1 areas.  There is a decline and a chance in nap needs at 10ish months, yes it is the EARLY BEGINNINGS of the drop to one nap, but try not to look at it as 2-1.  It's just a mind-set for yourself, nothing other than that, really, but it can help to keep the perspective in check for the age of your LO.

Does that make sense?

[annette.xx]

wow reading that mash makes me think I was waaayyyyy to hasty myself to cut that morning nap!

is it possible to back pedal?!! IYKWIM!!

Annette.xx

[greenteamomma]

Thanks to both of you.  Your dedication MASHI to this "cause" is incredible!  All the posts you make to support people!  You really are fabulous and explain things very well.  

Everything you have both said makes lots of sense.  I will try to work on a UT nap in the am which might just let him catch up and be less tired when I cut it to 30 mins.  That was my intent with putting him down around 9:45 but he had been resisting until 10:00 so I "thought" he was moving on with his routine.  It is/was very possible it was already too late, I see that now.  Then that stuff with the AM caused him to refuse the pm, probably OT, and I was thinking again that he was moving on with the routine.  Ok, I think I got what I was doing wrong.  I think you are right Mashi, to err on the side of it usually being OT rather then UT or nap refusal.  I will keep that in mind, lesson learned.

    

wake 630
nap 945 - 1030
nap 215? - 345
bed 730

Mashi, we had been doing this but he woke at 4:00ish or I would wake him by that time then it got shorter and shorter.  I cut the nap to 30 mins.  It worked for a while.  I guess this might have been ok.  
Annette, in this routine, the A after the short nap is the longest!  This is what worked for us...it might depend?!?

Well, today I tried to get him down UT for his am nap but I don't think it worked since he woke after 30 mins.  So, my thoughts are that he was OT from the restless night.  

He also took some time to go down for his second nap.  I tried after 3 hrs of A time, he laid down and then just sat there (I heard him moving so when to peak).  I tried to get him down and then it became a game so started all over again, 3.5 hrs of A time.  I'll give you an update later.  

[Mashi]

Well, today I tried to get him down UT for his am nap but I don't think it worked since he woke after 30 mins.  So, my thoughts are that he was OT from the restless night.

I think this is a very good assumption.  Look forward to seeing how today goes/went and then see what we can make of things from there.

(PS we had sam gyup sal for dinner tonight, so I was thinking of you!!!)

[greenteamomma]

So here is how the day went in EASY format:
wake?? I think maybe 6:00 since he was restless
nap 9:35 to 10:00 He woke on his own
nap 1:35 to 3:20 He woke on his own
In bed at 7:00-settled calmly around 7:15ish

I will see what time he wakes and if the night goes better.  Fingers crossed ladies! 

PS: you would NOT believe me if I said we had the same thing last night, with homemade ssamjjang!  Yum!  That's a story!