10w old never naps longer than 30min!! Have tried various things,

[cgmom]

..including shh/pat, wake to sleep, limiting activity time, increasing activity time, etc. She doesn't fall asleep independently, it takes a lot of sp, or placing her in her cot once already asleep. She is not grumpy however, so I'm assuming she's getting enough sleep?

She is a very good sleeper at night though, goes down at approx 8pm, df at 10.30, then night feed at 5ish am, then sleeps again until 8-8.30ish.

Do you think she's getting enough sleep? She'll have about 4-6 30min naps during the day. Problem is that because of the erratic nap times, its virtually impossible to put her on EASY, as she either expects to be fed everytime she wakes up, or she'll be too tired by the next feed time.


Did anyone else go through this? I'm hoping she'll just grow out of it, but am afraid that if I allow her to catnap/snack now, she'll never learn to take longer naps.
thanks

[~Sara~]

Hi hon!  Could you post what her day looked like for either today or yesterday (in the EAS format for a full 24 hours)?  Let's see if we can get some insight from that

Also, starting at about 3 months, babies start working on getting their daytime sleep figured out.  This is when issues with naps typically start occurring, so it could be developmental.

Has your daughter always taken short naps, or is this a sudden thing?

[deb]

Have you ruled out reflux? Josie's was on the upswing around this age, peaked at 10-16 weeks, actually.

[cgmom]

thanks for your replies.

Its definitely not reflux, both my nieces had it and I think I would recognise it. At night she settles nicely once she's full.

She has always taken short naps, except for the first 2.5w when she was sleeping most of the day. I have never managed to extend a nap, despite 45min of s/p.

Her days look something like this:

8.30 awake
E 8.30 - 9.15- takes lots of breaks, then 3oz formula
A9.15- 9.30 - change nappy, playmat (sometimes feed takes longer and she starts giving signs of tiredness immediately after eating, I then try to put her in her cot for her nap)
S 9.30-10.15- shh/patt
10.15-10-45-nap
keeps crying until end up feeding her at 11.00

E 11.00 - 11.15 - here she tends to fall asleep on me again
s 11.15-11.30
E 11.30-11.45
A 11.45 - watch me in kitchen
S 13.00 -trying to get her to nap, s/p, AP, etc
s 14.00-14.30

E14.30-15.30
A15.30-15.45
S16.00-17.00 trying to get her to nap, s/p, AP, etc
S17.00-17.30 - actual nap
E17.30-18.00
A 19.00 bath
E 19.15
S 20.00
E 5.00
S.5.45


We do have a tendency to offer her more bottle when she fails to settle for a nap, so her feeds seems spread over 1-1.5hrs. What a mess!!

I really hope someone has some ideas.

Thanks!!

[deb]

Believe it or not, and many people don't, there is reflux you can't see, appropriately named "silent reflux." Josie's was the opposite so easy to see, but her inability to fall asleep while horizontal would have been our first clue that she had reflux at one month of age, rather than her having to wait till 3.5 MONTHS to get treatment.  A lot of quality Mommy-baby time was lost there. So that's why reflux was my first thought. There's a Reflux 101 post in the Reflux FAQ's board with some things to look for and some things you can try; even if you don't suspect reflux, can't hurt to try keeping baby upright for 20-30 minutes after a feed, or putting to sleep on an incline. Many reflux babies - many babies in general - often turn out to prefer sleeping on their tummies, but that's a matter of preference for each family to decide, with a doctor if need be. Generally, once babies can lift their own heads it's considered to be low-risk, although Nat slept on her tummy from Day One despite being a floppy bundle of baby. (She got strong enough fast enough, tho!)

One things I've been known to resort to just to get things re-set is to either wear the baby (sling, baby bjorn) to get her to nap, put her in the stroller and go for a walk (gets ME out of the house and out of the nursery!), or just go driving and let baby sleep in the car seat. Seriously. For one day, just to get baby's sleep caught up and to get Mom some fresh air! Sometimes once baby isn't OT any more, naps go more easily since they aren't OT and jumpy/jittery. For a while, before Josie's reflux was diagnosed and treated, her EASY looked more like A=1 hour, S=45 minutes, repeat till bedtime, squeeze in E wherever it's closest to the "right" time. This resulted in maybe 4-6 of those short naps per day, and for at least one of them I'd sometimes let her sleep on HER tummy on MY tummy (go pee first, don't ask me how I know this ) and we could often get up to THREE HOURS of quality restorative sleep this way, but usually 90 minutes - an ACTUAL NAP!

Anyway, once we got sorted, THEN we could start fresh.

Oh, with my more Spirited one, Pat/Shush DI NOT EVER work!! I tried for THREE DAYS RUNNING (had DH take the older one to visit the IL's for a weekend so had time alone and to spare) and got NOWHERE!!! It just got her more wound up and I had to give up and wear her or my older DD would have gotten zero Mommy time. It just doesn't work for every baby.

Somewhere around that age, one full sleep cycle is about EXACTLY 45 minutes; I could hacve baked bread by Josie's naps, although instead I found I could mow the entire lawn in that time. If baby's napping for 30 minutes or 60 minutes, that suggests (to me, anyway) an incomplete sleep cycle and therefore possibly not fully rested.

[~Sara~]

Okay, what I recommend doing is lengthening her A times to about 1h15-20.  She probably isn't ready to go to sleep after an hour of being awake and so is difficult to settle.  But, then, during that settling time, she's missed her sleep window and then takes an OT nap (30 minutes).

Hopefully that small tweak will help the rest of her routine iron out.

If you see success with the first nap, then you know you should have her do 1h15-20 A times for every A time after a 1.5-2h nap.  If she still gives you a 30 minute nap, work on extending the nap still.  Try this for about 2-3 days and let's see how it's worked

[cgmom]

THanks, I'll work on extending her activity times.

Yesterday we went out shopping and she ended up sleeping 2 hours in the pram, and her feeding sessions were soo much better afterwards. She's clearly too exhausted to also eat properly when she only takes 30 min naps. What am I supposed to do about her feeds if I i'm not succesful in extending her naps, do I feed her when she wakes up or do I wait the full 3hours, despite her screaming (and a potentially poor feed the previous time)?

CG

[cgmom]

Oh, just to say that normally I watch for sleep cues, and normally try to start the WD routine after the first or second ywan, or by when she starts fussing. That's how I got to the (non!!!)- schedule I posted before.

This morning I worked out wrong the time for her next nap (she was up at 6.45 for what used to be her night feed), then didn't go back to sleep anymore, but somehow (what lack of sleep will do to you!!) calculated she'd be due for a nap at 9.00, instead of 8.00. She actually only started fussing at 8.20, but by then she was OT and took 30min to calm her down. She still only spet 30min, so I'm really confused !!!!! She clearly sleeps 30min when OT, and also when she's possibly UT??


Of course the rest of the day is completely ruined now as far as naps and feeds are concerned. I really need help to figure out how to tackle this, do I just AP to have her sleep for longer stretches, no matter what? I also don't want her to start hating her cot, or to mess up the nights!!


Should I keep her A time 1.15-20 even after a 30min nap?

[~Sara~]

What am I supposed to do about her feeds if I i'm not succesful in extending her naps, do I feed her when she wakes up or do I wait the full 3hours, despite her screaming (and a potentially poor feed the previous time)?

I would try to keep her to the 3h feeding as well as you possibly can.  Granted, some days are just off days, and if she really can't make it to the next feeding time, feed her a bit early.  That's okay

normally try to start the WD routine after the first or second ywan, or by when she starts fussing. That's how I got to the (non!!!)- schedule I posted before.

I would start doing it before the yawns in her case, then, especially before she starts fussing.  The first nap that you posted above came too late after she needs to be asleep.  If a good A time for her is 1h15, then that means that she needs to be ASLEEP 1h15 after she wakes up.  A time really is more awake time--so eyes open to eyes shut (includes eating, activities, and wind down routine).  You'll want to start her wind down routine about 20 minutes before she needs to be asleep.  So, if she wakes at 8:30, you'll need to start the wind down routine at 9:25, start the shh/pat on your shoulder, transfer her to crib while she's still awake--can be drowsy, but not asleep--and shh/pat the rest of the way until you see her settling on her own (or is asleep if she still is learning how to settle by herself).  That way, she is asleep no later than 9:45.  You'll have to determine how long she needs the shh/pat in the crib to fall asleep and adjust your wind down from there.  But, again, she should be asleep no later than 1h15 A time.

She clearly sleeps 30min when OT, and also when she's possibly UT??

I would say that 30 minutes is still very generally OT.  In this specific case, though, you know it was OT.

Of course the rest of the day is completely ruined now as far as naps and feeds are concerned. I really need help to figure out how to tackle this, do I just AP to have her sleep for longer stretches, no matter what? I also don't want her to start hating her cot, or to mess up the nights!!

The whole day isn't necessarily messed up.  One of the great things about EASY is that you learn how to adjust your LO's routine according to the day she's had.  So, if she has a short nap that you can't extend, you start counting A time from when she woke up, shorten it a bit to prevent more OT, and put her down for her nap sooner...say, after 50min-1h A time as opposed to her regular 1h15.  She'll sleep a good 1.5-2h nap and you'll be all set! 

If your day's routine doesn't follow exact times, that's okay!  Just keep the pattern going: EASEASEAS...that's what's most important as LOs aren't the same everyday (just like us adults aren't). 

And just like some days are messed up, yes, some nights are, too.  It's just part of life with a baby   I say that to allay your fears that if you know she's had a rough, OT day, yes, she might have an OT night.  I would try to not do APOP unless you absolutely have to; rather, first try extending the nap, shortening the next A time if necessary and see what the following nap is like.  If it's the end of the day, and she needs some APOP for a nap or two because she's still OT, then that's okay...you just have to use your best judgment and not let it become a habit.  My own rule of thumb is that APOP is always a last resort.  Yesterday was the first time I used it in a while bc all 3 of DS's naps were OT and nothing I did was changing it.  I held him to sleep for his catnap   So, some days you just have to go with it.

Should I keep her A time 1.15-20 even after a 30min nap?

I mentioned this above, but definitely not.  It will only contribute to the OT cycle!  You'll have to scale back, but by how much really depends on your LO.  I would guess that she'd only be able to do between 50 minutes and 1 hour after a 30 minute nap.  Feed her early if you need to in order to get her down earlier.

[cgmom]

Just an update to let you know that we've had a breakthrough-we've now managed nap up to 2hrs (had to wake her up) a number of times, which is a definite first for us! About a week ago i decided to give swaddling a try (i have claustrophobia issues with it myself, that's why i've been reluctant to swaddle), but it worked like a charm. She immediately calmed down and fell asleep on her own, and gave us a 1.5hr nap.

Since then we've also succeeded in extending naps (small re-swaddle +paci). We've still had our fair share of 30, 45 min naps, but I know feel like I know what I'm dealing with and have some way of calming her down and getting her to sleep. I've now started teaking her A times as you've suggested to see if that helps getting rid of some of the 30min naps.

I'm wondering if this was something developmental and she's simply learned to make it through the 30 min mark? A few days before she started napping better she started waking up for a feed during the night, whereas in the weeks previous to that she'd started sleeping till 6.30-7.30! The one night she woke up at 4.30, next 4.00, now she's done 5.00am for the past few days. Any idea what might be causing this? It started before the naps improved, so probably not related to the fact that she's sleeping better during the day. I guess it's not a problem as such, 5.00 is probably normal at this age, its just that she has consistently pushed her night feed later and later since day one, and now she has regressed.


Thanks sooo much for your help this far, I am so relieved that I'm now getting longer naps!

[deb]

YAY! Sounds like good news!

[~Sara~]

Hooray!!  I'm so glad the swaddle is working for her and that her naps are improving.  The night feed could be related to her 3 month GS, if she hasn't already had it.  If the waking doesn't stop in the next few days, then I would try wake to sleep about 1.5h before she normally wakes to get rid of it as it's probably habitual.