A year of bad nights and early starts!!!

[DeenGeorge]

Hi everyone. This is my first time on here after watching Baby whisperer yesterday on Sky TV. So I haven't as yet bought the books or read up on all these techniques but after reading many posts and great advice I thought I would give this a try now.

My little boy is 14 months old and from birth has been trouble sleeping at night. He often wakes repeatedly in the night and can wake fully anytime from 4.30am. To be honest I would say he has slept through the night about only ten times in his life! He isn't so bad now, he doesn't cry for ages and ages but during the night he may wake 3 times and I go in to lay him down and calm him and he will then go back off to sleep again.

Last night he went off to bed fine, I put him down after milk awake and he usually goes off to sleep on his own, he then woke at 2am, 3.30am and then woke at 4.45am which is when I got up / usually get up. I have tried to leave him to cry and go back to reassure him, not pick him up but he will carry on crying, will go quiet for about 10 mins then start again, and by the time we are at 6am for example I get up and think was all that for leaving him to cry for that time as we are all awake anyway! It doesn't seem to work.

Any advice would be great and much needed!! I think I probably need to be harder and should imagine it's my fault where I've always kept going into him but he cries so loud the neighbours have commented before about it (I've actually given them a box of chocolates when he was younger to apologise for the noise!) and has always seemed to need me to lay him down and then he will go off to sleep again that I have thought there is no use leaving him to cry it out and get upset when I can resolve it by going in. I never, well unless he gets in a real state, pick him up or talk to him much.


daily routine:
4.30am onwards wakes. I try to get him to about 5.30/ 6am with leaving him in his cot and keep returning. Sometimes he may go off to sleep if he's tired from crying for about 20 mins so we get a bitter closer to 5.30! . Then go downstairs and has Bottle of milk.
7.00am Breakfast. Cereal or toast and fruit or yoghurt
8.30am. Sleep. He has this early nap as he's up so early and by this time is very tired. He is normally quite good for his naps. He may cry a little and I go in to lay him down and then he goes off so may be closer to 9am he actually falls asleep.
Around 10 - 10.30 am wakes. Bottle of milk
10.30ish. Snack and water
11.45am. Lunch. Normally hot lunch to fit in with nursery. I work part time 3 days a week.
2 - 2.30pm Bottle of milk then he will go far a nap. Lately he has been having 2 hours!
If he wakes at 4pm he doesn't have an afternoon snack, I give him his tea about 4.30 - 5pm.
6.30pm he has a bath, dressed then bottle of milk and usually in bed around 7-7.30pm.

In between this routine we try to meet with other babies or we play together at home. His Daddy plays with him when he gets in from work about 5.45pm/ How long are naps?e routine? Time?

He is a lively boy with lots of energy. He does have a dummy which he loves and it really calms him down - I expect this is a problem. It's tied to a muslin cloth he has when he goes to bed so he can find it. He does have a few temper tantrums and gets frustrated with things very easily as he's always wanting to explore and get into mischief!

I wouldn't mind an early start if the nights were OK but it does all get a bit too much with work as well so I'm hoping all you experienced mummy's can help me out!!!

[~*Nicole*~]

Hi and welcome!

I am hoping I can help you with a couple of things. I know you are working on teaching him independent sleep....but there are some routine things I can probably give you information on.

On a day you get a wake up closer to 5:30, I would try pushing your morning nap out to 9:30. You may have to do this slowly .... so it might be lying him down at 8:45 for a few days and then laying him down at 9:00 for a few days etc. until you're at about 9:30. Then I'd wake him up after about 30 to 45 minutes. He is at an age where many children need 4 to 5 hours of being awake before they're tired enough again to sleep...BUT if you wake them after such a short nap of 30 to 45 mins. they aren't rested enough to go their full amount of time. Then you can do another nap and let it be longer in the afternoon. About 3 to 3.5 hrs after he wakes up from the shorter morning nap should work out fairly well. Let him have his 2 hour nap as normal, but hopefully with cutting his daytime sleep to between 2 and 3 hours at most (combined naps) he'll sleep better at night.

I think right now he is getting too much daytime sleep and is waking at night b/c he's not tired enough to sleep through.

Having his morning nap later should also encourage him to sleep later after a week or so. And lessening his daytime sleep should help him sleep better at night as well.

Also his bedtime is quite early for waking at 4:00 pm. If he sleeps until 4:00 he can likely go until close to 8:00 before he needs to go to bed for the night. I know he's overtired right now...so 7:00 might be better but you may find he'll do better with a bit of a later bedtime once you're back on track.


Here are some routines for little ones his age that you can browse as I think getting on a good routine may help you immensely:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=49006.0


Hope this is helpful for you.

[DeenGeorge]

Hi there, thanks so much for your reply and I am going to try your suggestions this morning! It's great to have some help, I think when you are in the position it's often very difficult to see where things are going wrong so great to have your eyes take a fresh look.

I've looked at the link you gave me of toddlers days and found that most only have one sleep in the day. George is only 14 months but when do they normally change to just one sleep a day?

And another question...sorry! I give him his hot lunch of chicken, lamb casserole, fish pie etc at lunch time. I noticed other people give this at night time. Would you suggest hot dinner at night would be better to keep him full up and sleep better at night? I changed this round as Nursery give the hot mal at lunch and wanted him to have some consistency.

I normally give him his dinner about 4.30pm so hopefully if the routine changes I can get this nearer to 5.30pm like the other routines and then the later bedtime nearer to 7.30 - 8pm then hopefully waking at 6.30 - 7am!!!!

Everything crossed and thanks again for your help xx

[~*Nicole*~]

About getting on one nap per day. It is a HUGE range. Average age is between 12-18 months (see what I mean about huge) 12 is thought to be quite early. I think around 15/16 months is more usual and most LOs by 18 months have switched. I would stick to 2 naps...one of them being quite short...until your routine is set and he is sleeping really well at night. When that happens I'd see if he could handle dropping the short nap. It'll be easier to figure out how much time he can handle being awake without getting overtired once he's getting a good night's rest and taking consistent naps.


From what I have found with hot lunch vs. hot dinner is...American mom's tend to do hot dinner before bed and European/etc. mom's tend to do a hot meal earlier around lunch. It's not a hard and fast rule, whatever works best for you. Some days both of my meals are hot and some days neither are LOL

Best of luck and don't hesitate to ask questions. If I don't know an answer I can find someone who does !

[DeenGeorge]

thanks again for all your help. And happy new year!

[~*Nicole*~]

Same to you.

Update when you can.

[DeenGeorge]

Hey, we've been doing your suggestions for the last 2 days and he has woken at 5.45am. So that's good, at least it's not 4.30am. he's still woken in the night but it seems to be upset crying like he's had a dream or something so I have gone to him to reassure him and he's laid down and gone back to sleep. Funny thing is he's done it both nights at 3am.

I don't mind 5.45am every day, I can cope with that although would love 7am!!! But should I be trying to push him to sleep a little longer in the mornings and leave him for a while? He is crying though as soon as he wakes. He never wakes happy and plays on his own in his cot like some of the other posts I have seen.

So, he has a nap for one hour (we have had to wake him up for these am and pm naps the past 2 days) at 9.30am then 2 hours at 2pm. So 3 hours of day sleep and then we pushed the bedtime to 8pm so approx 10 night time hours of sleep. So 13 hours a day which is sort of right isn't it?

I actually thought he was tired this morning when he woke but he wouldn't lay down again at 5.45am as he's seen me then and if I left him I think he would continue to cry for a while. At 7am he was grumpy tired.

He's at nursery today so who knows what's going on there today and whether he has slept at all!! He was very excited this morning when I droppped him off to see all his pals.

Thanks again for your support and keep checking in on me.

[~*Nicole*~]

So was it something like this:

5:45-wake
9:30-10:30 (wake him from this nap)
2:00-4:00 (you woke him again?0
8:00-bedtime?

10 hrs is still an OT sign. I'd stick with this routine for a good solid week. Let him catch up and get the 3 hours of day sleep and the 10 hours at night. You can TRY to do a wi/wo type of approach to see if you can get him to go back to sleep at 5:45 in the morning. Even making it to 6 or 6:30 would possibly have him waking up happier overall. If not though, after about a week, I would suggest slowly moving out his am nap and maybe cutting it again.

I think you might find if you head towards something like:

6-7:00-wake up (which is the hope that he will sleep until this time IF we end up making these changes in a week or so)
10:00-10:30/10:45-nap that you wake him from
1:30/2:00-nap again for approx. 2 hours.
7:30/8:00-bedtime

Then that may work for awhile and if he starts refusing any naps or waking early again....we'll see what the next step is.

[DeenGeorge]

Morning, it's so nice of you to keep helping me out and checking in on me every day. I look forward to your emails as it's always nice to have some support!

Yes, that is how the day is working out for the last 4 days I think it is now. We have had to wake him from his naps but then at Nursery he sleeps less as all the other babies wake him. He's a very light sleeper. My mother in law has him for 2 days when I'm at work and she has been working to the new schedule and Nursery for 1 day.

This morning he woke at 6am! So progress. And he actually went to bed at 7.30pm last night, earlier, but he was very tired from Nursery and wasn't fair to keep him up any longer. He went straight to bed when I put him down, out like a light. So he actually slept a little longer going to bed a little earlier but I guess that's just from being tired.

He still did the waking in the night at 2am, crying out sounding very upset but went straight back to sleep when I comforted him.

Again, I think he was still a little tired this morning so fingers crossed he can eventually get to 6 or 6.30am and wake feeling happy and chirpy. As you say I will do a whole week and see if things start to work out. I'm now off work until Monday so can have some time with him and hopefully try to attend some baby clubs, sorry toddler clubs now he's a big boy, to work towards getting rid of his energy and stimulating him.

Thanks again for all your help.

Dee x

[~*Nicole*~]

And he actually went to bed at 7.30pm last night, earlier, but he was very tired from Nursery and wasn't fair to keep him up any longer. He went straight to bed when I put him down, out like a light. So he actually slept a little longer going to bed a little earlier but I guess that's just from being tired.

Many moms find that in OT-land, very early bedtimes actually help a lot.

My LO is calling so off I go...but you're doing great.

No problem about coming back to check. I would hate if I suggested something and it totally backfired and I left the poor mom with no help figuring out what to do next! I know how great it is to get help on here as I've gotten a TON.

[DeenGeorge]

Good Morning!! Just to give an update.

We have four nights where he has slept through - yippee!!! The wake up times have been 5.15am, 6am then we had an odd one where he woke at 4am until about 4.45 where I had to comfort him (think the dredded teething may be coming back!) and he went back to sleep until 7am and then this morning a sleep through until 6am on the dot.

So I think it seems to be working. he is very grumpt most of the day though especially where I'm waking him from his morning nap but I guess he's just got to get his body clock used to shorter sleep in the day.


I have been trying to get him to bed later as suggested - it's been 7.45pm the earlist so we are doing well there. He actually has a mad half an hour from about 6pm so seems to be happier at this time of the evening after his 2 hour sleep. He has woken a couple of times after about 1 hour 45 mins.

When waking at 6am should I now be pushing the morning nap to start at 10am. I have been giving him an hour at this nap as he's so grumpy when I wake but should it now be 45 mins?

Hope you've had a good few days. We've had so much snow in the UK which has been fun!

The next post for some help is about temper and behaviour so help on that would be great too!

Again, thanks for your help. It really haas worked I think. I don't see the clock say 4 something am anymore!! Well, let's hope anyway! Deex

[DeenGeorge]

sorry, me again. I forgot to ask. To encourage maybe a sleep in nearer 7am, do you think I should hold off giving him his morning bottle which I have been giving him as soon as he wakes and go downstairs? Would that help at all so his body gets used to having milk say at 6.30am and sticking to that time no matter when he wakes in the morning?

I'm still giving him 4 bottles a day which he drinks completely. At his age now should I just be giving a morning and night time and then forgetting about the two in the middle although he does enjoy them? Thanks

[~*Nicole*~]

I think that as he has caught up on sleep you can try to push his morning nap out a bit. If that helps you get a later wake up but you find it hard to fit in two good naps, you can then cut it to the 45 mins. but since he's still grumpy at being woken up I'd keep it nearer to an hour at first and see how he does with it a bit later but still getting to sleep a decent amount. (I can't remember but have you tried the long am nap and shorter catnap at the end of the day? Since he's still grumpy at being woken up I wonder if he'd tolerate that better? But wasn't sure if you had tried it or not.)

Most LOs are doing only 2 bottles, morning and night around his age...and some even start only having one as they approach 18 months I believe, but we do sippy cups and have been allowing DD to have 2 to 3 cups of milk a day as long as she eats well. We stopped doing one before bed, and she has it during dinner and then can take it out of her chair to finish but it doesn't come upstairs anymore. You'll have to be the judge about bottles. Is he eating enough? If so I wouldn't worry about them tremendously...but you can gradually try to shift/change when he has them and how many. DD can't wait for breakfast before wanting a cup in the morning, so I give it to her, but she still eats breakfast well. I do try to hold off, as you suggested for your LO...to encourage her to sleep later as well. I think holding off until 6:30 is a good idea. If he does well with that after awhile you can try holding off until 6:45....then maybe even 7:00! I have found that the older DD gets the more I can distract her or let her play independently in the morning without her having a "MILK" meltdown and needing to have it right away.

It really sounds like it's going well. 6:00am is MUCH nicer than 4:00am!!!!

[DeenGeorge]

Hi Nicole,

Hope you are well. I'm back for some more help please. Feel terrible I only speak to you when I want something!!

We've been trying to keep to the new routine and he's slipped back into waking at 5am for over a week now. Luckily this morning after a cuddle I got him to back back to sleep from 5 to 6.30 so that was great but other mornings he just cries loud from 5am and I can't settle him.

I know it's probably the worst thing I could do but I've put him in bed with me and a couple of times as I've been tired and working late evenings and he has gone straight to sleep and one day was still asleep until 8am! So he must be tired and not ready to wake at 5am!

He has been sleeping less in the days too. Initially I said to you I had to wake him up from the am nap and was very grumpy. We then tried turning the longer sleep to the am but he himself has starting having the shorter sleep in the am, sometimes just 30 mins and now isn't sleeping for 2 hours in the PM nap. So it getting less sleep in the day and waking up earlier in the mornings!!! We are still trying to get him to go to bed closer to 8pm but on days when he is very tired after having ust maybe 2 hours in the day bedtime is nearer 7.30pm.

So not sure what to do now. Still sticking to your plan with the naps but if he's waking up earlier what do I do now? I would have thought he would be sleeping better at night if he hasn't had too much sleep in the day?

I still haven't got the BW book, will try today in my lunchbreak to order it from the bookshop but should I maybe be leaving him to cry at 5am and keep returning to reassure him or do the WIWO or PUPD? Whatever they are!! Assuming walk in walk out and pick up put down?? Also, he's then getting tired around 8am so it's difficult to try to get him to go until 9.30am for the am nap.

So all out of sorts. Also, his day at nursery last week he only slept for 1.5 hours all day so he is probably over tired would you say? But what do you do about that if he is waking himself at home from the naps?

Sorry, very confused mummy - again!!! Thanks in advance for your help which I'm sure will be great. xx

[~*Nicole*~]

Hi,

It's okay, I know when things are going well we don't get on here as often as when things are going crazy!

It sounds like a combination of overtiredness and I want to cuddle in mommy's bed. Both are fixable. Can you tell me the last couple of days and what times he woke, napped and went to bed? Maybe we can see how we can fix it.

I wouldn't try doing any wi/wo or pu/pd until we figure out if he's overtierd or not. If he is, it wouldn't be fair to try to force sleep training on him if he can't sleep well because he's unsettled and restless.

I am thinking you might have to do very very early bedtimes to catch him up on sleep. Since he's waking at 5:00am anyway...you might want to do a bedtime as early as 5:30/6:00pm even though that sounds crazy....it'll give him a good 11-12 hour night and you might be able to work from there to push your day back to normal b/c he'll not be as tired when he wakes if he gets a good long stretch of sleep. Does that make sense?