dream feed?

[skipper11]

I have a four-month old with whom we just started the EASY schedule last Wednesday.  So far, so good.  Getting her down for a nap is much easier, and we can put her down for a nap and bed while slightly awake.  She does wake up after 30 to 45 min, so we have to PU/PD, but we're seeing improvements.

She is still waking a lot in the night however, and I can't decide whether to try a dream feed (again) or whether I need to be feeding her at night.  We tried one before, when she was much younger (maybe around 10 weeks?) and she woke up all night.  I decided to start trying again a couple of weeks ago and that is when the current night-waking problems began.  She had been going to bed around 7, waking up at 2:30 to eat, then going back to bed until 7 (sometimes with a wake around 5:30 too).  When I started dream feeds, she started waking up every few hours, and sometimes now she gets up every hour.

So the first night of PU/PD, my husband took the first shift, because I assumed I would need to feed her at the second one.  She didn't wake up again -- went 12 hours without eating.  (She was 16 pounds at her 4 month appointment and is a good eater.)  So the next few nights as she woke we didn't feed her.  She didn't seem to be hungry, but now I'm worried that maybe she is and I'm just missing it?  There is screaming involved (as we are doing PU/PD) but after the first night, it hasn't taken so long and there is much less screaming.  However, 2 nights ago, she woke up every hour or so and the next day it occurred to me that maybe if I had just fed her she would've gone back to sleep.  So last night, when she woke at 10 pm I fed her, then she still woke up around 1 am.  (She had been sleeping from 7 to 2:30 -- with occasional interruptions -- since about 7 weeks.)  After PU/PD at 1 last night (only took 2 attempts!), she woke twice more, but we never had to go into her room (she was just intermittently chatty and fussy).

I almost forgot:  the biggest reason I decided to give up the dream feed -- when we started easy, we can't get her to eat a full meal at 7 am.  Pre-easy she was eating around 8:30 am.  Even without the dreamfeed it takes her a good half an hour with multiple breaks, and we're lucky if she gets down 6 ounces.  She does eat bigger meals at 11 and 3.  After feeding her last night at 10, it was hard to get her to take a full feed this morning.

So my common sense tells me this means she doesn’t need to be fed in the middle of the night.  Her night-wakings had increased even when I was feeding her in the middle of the night.  But I’m worried that maybe she has just given up on getting food at night even though she’s hungry.  Any thoughts?  Is it possible (likely?) that my 16 pound 4 month old just doesn’t need a nighttime meal?

Our schedule, by the way, since we just started EASY is pretty much textbook 4 hour easy.  We struggle getting her to take longer naps (but sometimes she does).  The only difference is that her last feed is a little early, because she is usually so tired at 6 that we just can’t keep her up much longer.  (We could, but she’d be really, really upset.)  So I usually feed her around 6:30 and put her to bed shortly thereafter. 

I know this is long, but I really want to make sure I’m not starving my baby.    Thanks!

[Jiinx]

hi there, would you be able to post your routine Just so we can see when it starts in the morning, the duration of naps, the amount of activity and how many nightwakings she has had *hugs* this will get better.

PUPD won't work if she's OT, UT or hungry. It's not uncommon for babies, at 4months, to still require a feeding during the night. However, a full tummy does not equal a better night's sleep.

Chattiness during nightwakings is a common sign of a need to increase activity times during the day.

We can look at your routine and see if a little tweaking is needed.

[skipper11]

Absolutely.  And thanks!  I went back to work today after staying at home with her last week, so her day might have been a little worse due to that. 

Last night:  E at 6:30, bed at 7.  Woke up at 10:30 pm, feed for about 6 to 8 min.  Went back to sleep easily.  Woke up at 1 am, husband did 1 PU/PD and she went back to sleep.  He came back to our room and had to go back in a few minutes later, do PU/PD briefly and back to sleep.  Heard chatter which turned to fussing which almost turned to crying on two separate occasions between 2 and 6:40, but she put herself back to sleep.

Wake:  6:40 am.  Low activity (diaper change, etc.)

E:  7 to 7:30 breastfed maybe 10 minutes with many mini-breaks, took a little more after an extended (10 min) break.

A:  7:30 to 8:40 -- she was exhausted by this time.  I took her into her room at 8:35 to try and start pre-nap routine but she was so fussy -- she went right to my shoulder and passed out.

S:  8:40 to 9:00 -- (she woke up when I put her in the crib -- maybe she never really went to sleep?) my mom went in to do PU/PD and gave up after about 5 min because baby was screaming!  She misunderstood and thought it was time for the "break" but she did kept her quiet.  Waited 10 to 15 min and tried again.  She would sleep on and off for 10 min and cry, while my mom did PU/PD between about 9:30 and 10:30.

A:  10:30 to 11:00 (quiet time -- reading, etc.)

E:  11:00 (6 oz) (plus 3 oz later--see below)

S:  (I was at work by this time) but I believe my mom tried to put her in her crib around 11:45 since she hadn't napped well this morning.  She did PU/PD until 12:30, took a 15 min break, determined baby was hungry, fed 2-3 more oz, and baby was in bed asleep around 2.  Slept until 3 when mom woke her up for feed.  (Really?  Are we really supposed to wake her up?  It seems so counterintuitive when what we're dealing with is a short nap problem.)  But she did.

E:  3:00 (6 oz)

A:  3:30 to 5.  Took a 10 min nap at 5, and was sitting quietly, glassy eyed and exhausted when I came home at 5:40.  She fell asleep on my shoulder, woke up when I put her in crib (about 6) so we just started getting ready for bed.

E:  6:30

S:  7.  Up at 7:30ish, Dad gives pacifier and shush-pats for 10 min, back to sleep.  Currently 11:21 and no more wakings (yet!)

So you can see, currently bedtime comes right after eating because she is so exhausted she can't keep her eyes open (and she is cranky!)  But I don't put her in her crib asleep anymore -- she always wakes up a little bit before she goes down.

We've had other days that were much more textbook -- I believe on day 2 she took a 2 hour nap in her crib with no PU/PD and also took an afternoon nap (with PU/PD).  My mom fully understands and is on-board now (she's here for 2 weeks) so we're ready to go.  I just don't know if I should feed her when (if!) she wakes up tonight.  I did not give her a dream feed because she was so reluctant to eat this am, and she ate really well before bed.

Should I be feeding her right when she wakes and pushing up her whole routine 20 min or so?  This is her first "routine" so I was following Tracy's suggestion to stick exactly to it at first (hence not feeding her until 7 and waking her up from her nap at 3).  Is it time to stop that and be more flexible?

I have no problem continuing to feed her at night if that is what she needs.  I just don't know if that is what she needs!  Before the erratic night-wakings started, her one night-waking was like clockwork -- 7.5 hours from when she went to sleep.  Any thoughts?

[Jiinx]

hi there,
 It's tough being at work and worrying about your baby, huh? Know that you're doing the best that you can and we are all here to help you out

 here are my thoughts about your EASY:

EASY
E looks good...

A: so for a 4 month old, their activity between sleeps (eyes open to eyes closed) is between 1 H and 45 minutes to 2 hours. However, with most babies - the first A is usually the shortest as they get tired quite easily. So, by taking a look at your routine she woke at 6:40 and you took her into her room at 8:35. Perhaps, you could have her in bed by 1 hour and 45 minutes and start your wind down 5-10 minutes before that?

S: so just continuing along from what I mentioned in the A, she was exhausted by the time she was put her in her crib and was too over tired to sleep. PUPD is a wonderful tool but it won't work if a baby is overtired, hungry or undertired. 4 months is the youngest time to use PUPD and some babies, like mine at the age, just find it too stimulating. Has your mom or you tried to do shush pat instead?

Since she did not take a good first nap, it's important to keep on top of her sleep so she doesn't get too OT as the day wears on. So basically what you do is just cut the next A by 15 minutes if she took a 45 minute nap (or less if you think she can't do the full A) BUT since she didn't nap at all I would say just do a quiet activity for a little bit of time and put her to sleep again. waiting until 11:45 is way too long and she's just really really tired by then. Does that make sense?

Also, for days that are just not going well in terms of sleep - it's really okay to put babies to sleep early to have them catch up on that sleep that they missed.

I really think the night wakings will work itself out once the routine looks good. Yes, feeding before bedtime can lead to a prop issue. They may get used to have a full belly and going to nap/sleep and enjoy that, ykwim? Your routine of 4 hours is great...they're tummies are bigger and can really go that long.

I hope that helped a bit? If you need me to post a routine or need any more clarifications let me know.


In summary though: if she's short napping/not napping, keep cutting her A times to keep a lid on OT and if she's had a rough day, put her to bed early so she can get a good sleep. My guess is that she went into a very deep OT sleep for the first half of the night, and then entered the lighter sleep phases for the next half leading to wakings, that may have not necessarily been related to hunger.

Links:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=164029.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69177.0

[skipper11]

Thank you so much for your help!  Last night went better than I could've expected -- she slept from 7:30 to 6:15.  I didn't hear a peep from her all night!  So I guess the answer to my first question was no, she doesn't need a dream feed. 

Now she's upstairs fighting my mom like the ens to take a nap.  She (as usual) took a 30 min nap, woke up, and will not go back to sleep.

We had actually been increasing her A time a little bit since I read that chatting at night is a sign that they need more A.  I slept in this morning, but she was up (out of her crib) from 6:30 to 8:15.  She had been awake since 6:15, so I was a little concerned that she had gone down too late.  So based on what you said, I'm thinking definitely overtired?  My mom read to her for about 10 min, put her on her shoulder, and she was out like a light.

We have tried shush-pat, and I believe my mom understands that is what she is supposed to try first.  I've had luck with it a couple of times, but most of the time she fights us so hard that we can't keep her on her side.  She wakes up from these 30 minute naps and is wide awake!  But I know she needs more sleep because if we give in she becomes a very glassy eyed baby very quickly and just kind of sits with a vacant stare all day.  And then after a few days of no naps her nighttime sleep deteriorates too. 

So we'll try putting her down for naps earlier and hope that helps.  She did take a two-hour nap in her crib last week without the 30 min wake up.  I wonder how I replicate that ...

So assuming my mom eventually gets her to sleep, do we really need to wake her for a feed at 10:50/11?  (She ate at 6:50 this morning.)  I'm just concerned that we're reinforcing a short nap pattern, which is a real problem for her.

And I understand what you're saying about the second (post-no-nap nap period) A time being too long, but her 4 hour easy had E time at 11.  So she ate until 11:30, mom had quiet time for 15 min, and put in her crib at 11:45.  Do we need to adjust everything after a missed nap?  Like right now, she's been sleeping/trying to get her to sleep for an hour and a half.  If she stops trying after 1.45, then it will be at least 50 min before next E?

[Jiinx]

just going to put lo to a nap soon but be back soon.. *hugs*

chattiness can be a sign of low A..but the first A seemed a bit too high yesterday. It might have been bc she was OT to begin with. Also, it may take a few days for her to get used to the new A time. So it doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't the right A for her. It's kind of like a mini daylight savings time for them - does that make sense? After a few days of the same A their bodies get used to it. I'll elaborate later!

Now she's upstairs fighting my mom like the ens to take a nap.  She (as usual) took a 30 min nap, woke up, and will not go back to sleep.

what was her A like before she went down for this nap? Her sleep looks great. She almost got 11 hours. what was she doing when she woke up? She could have woke up hungry, but tired, and didn't have motivation to go back to sleep after sleeping for so long. 1 hour and 45 minute is a good amount of A. Maybe dial it down a bit and see if that makes a difference to her first nap?

So assuming my mom eventually gets her to sleep, do we really need to wake her for a feed at 10:50/11?  (She ate at 6:50 this morning.)  I'm just concerned that we're reinforcing a short nap pattern, which is a real problem for her.

no you don't have to wake her up (sorry for the late reply!). It's okay to wait 30 minutes. 4 hour easy is a loose guideline that you follow. However, you don't want her feed to go much more than 4 hours as you want to make sure they get enough calories during the day. Otherwise they may wake up hungry at night. That's why a lot of mothers opt to do a dreamfeed...

 Do we need to adjust everything after a missed nap?  Like right now, she's been sleeping/trying to get her to sleep for an hour and a half.  If she stops trying after 1.45, then it will be at least 50 min before next E?

Oh yes definitely. My EASY was never EASY, it was always AEASA...there's no strict timelines..it's all about watching your baby!

So with A times, there's always a balance. if your baby's just waking up once or twice at night then it may be hunger related. Especially if you try to settle her and she wakes up crying soon after, ykwim? There's no need to increase her A by huge amounts right now. You'll see in a couple of months, their A time will go up quite a bit...

HTMS..

[skipper11]

Thank you so much for your help!  I really appreciate it.  We're still dealing with a serious nap problem, so I'm going to move over to the nap board.