6 mo. old EASY - can't get it right

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Morning, Melinda.  Glad you're feeling a bit better today.  And 11.5h, that's good!  What was he doing at 1:15?  How long did it take to get him back down?

Let us know if Matt sees a trend we've missed.  I'll admit, though, sometimes I feel like I drive myself crazy looking for patterns and can't ever find one.   You might really think about hitting the reset button and just trying to follow him and deal with short naps and early bed to clean up this OT for a few days.  Then go from there with the routine adjustment.

If it makes you feel any better we started our day at 4:45 and DH is out of town until tonight so I'm on my own all day.  Sigh.  Why does Austin sleep until 6:30 or 7 on days when DH is going to get up with him but before 5 when I'm on duty??    Going to go for set naps (with wake up after 1.5h if I need to) so I'll let you know how that goes.

Oh, and I ate a bunch of chocolate last night.  Hope you did, too. 

[Mjaz]

At 1:15am he just woke, struggled for 10 minutes or so and then cried for us.  Ate and went right back.  Matt didn't see ANY trend what-so-ever.  He doesn't think there's a science to this, he thinks it just is what it is. 

After an A time 2:35 this morning he woke after just 35 minutes - completely awake and happy.  I can't win. 

I think our routine needs a complete overhaul, so I am considering starting set naps tomorrow. Or I am going to push the first nap till 2:45 again, so I'm sure I get an OT nap that I can at least extend!  Are you doing 9am and 2pm or something like that?

Thanks, Kate.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Yeah I'm doing 9 and 1:30.  Assuming that one day he'll sleep 9-10:30, then a 3h A until 1:30.  Might eventually have that back towards 2 if I regularly have to wake him at 10:30 and/or he wants more A time before the afternoon nap, but for now this is what I'm going to try.  He was a total crankpot from about 8am on, not surprisingly since he was up at 4:45.  So I'm fully expecting a short, OT nap.  But Wendy told me to push through and not put him down early for the afternoon nap.  It's probably going to be a rough few days but if I can get him on a better routine, it'll be worth it.  I can't start my days before 5am anymore!!!

So, :shrug:, might be worth a try for you guys, too. Seems to be what everyone around here does as a last ditch and I think you and I are both there! 

[Mjaz]

I wonder if I should try the same set time, even though Austin is a month older?  I am so scared of the OT, but like you said, I am at that last ditch place...sadly...  Let me know how today goes, OK?  Crossing my fingers for you.

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Well I'll tell you that I started talking about these naps a month ago.    If I were you I'd go with 9am for the first one, since everyone says putting them down before that just sets up for an EW loop.  Then maybe 1 for the 2nd for E, since he is younger and doing shorter As in general.  Austin is up to 3:15 for some of his As (or so I thought before this weird OT/teething/constipation thing hit). 

I'll keep you posted....

[Mjaz]

How has your day gone thus far?

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Haha.  I just opened this and was about to write that I put him down at 9 and hadn't heard from him since but as I hit reply, I hear him whining!  Hmm.  Quiet now, though, so maybe he'll go back.  Anyhow, not the 35 min nap I had anticipated so that's positive.    If he's not up now I'm going to get him up in the next 20min or so.  It feels sooooo weird to wake him up!  But I know it's the right thing to do. 

Then I'll go for 1:30. 

Man, I'm so tired already and it's not even 10:30am!  I'm about to go to this brunch with a bunch of childless people who were all at a big party last night.  They will all be just dragging themselves out of bed and it's lunchtime for me!!   

Will keep you posted.

[C_mother]

Sounds like an early start all around - boo

Melinda, doesn't sound like the most restful night for you  , but not bad for your little one!  11.5 hrs is great. With these increasing A times, we really do get to a 12.5 hr day anyway.  Did you skip the CN yesterday?  I probably wouldn't have treated the EW as a NW, and would have counted 7 as the beginning of the day (and then put him to bed between 7-7:30). Not sure that would have helped, but I do think it would have kept his routine a bit more consistent iykwim.  

So here is everything that I can think of that might spark an idea or at least be reassuring:

• Daylight savings is in 2 weeks   Might I put in a plug for the 8 - 8 (or 8 - 7) routine? You get very little time to yourself in the evenings  , but it does help with the sleep deprivation. I can focus SOOO much better for an EW that occurs at 6:30 compared to 5ish.  As an aside, by the time we 'fall back', we will have toddlers!!! Time flies  
• 35 minutes is our typical short nap. I have no idea if it is under or overtired, but even when he is happy I try to extend it.  Usually if he is just awake and babbling after 35 mins I give him 20 mins to go back on his own (80% of the time he does), and if not I turn him on his side and start patting. Most of the time he goes back to sleep, so I figure something other that UT or OT caused the waking.  So, with your AM nap today, I wouldn't worry too much.  But, I would honestly try to stick to an A time for a few days no matter what.  2:40 might be good because if he is not yet ready, then he will grow into it, and you can extend an OT nap.
• Other baby routines suggest a 1hr morning nap, and longer PM nap. Maybe this would be good for him (lots of babies fall into this pattern so they say). The up side is that you would generally (based on the last number of days) not have a problem with the AM nap, and would only really have to worry about the PM nap. The down side is that you are in trouble if the PM nap goes badly   It would be a great routine if you could get it to work, and it might saving your sanity/limit your APOPing
• Could you try W2S for the evening waking?  We have had success with it for wakings that were not really habitual, but were generally around the same time (e.g., usually between 9 and 10). We did 45 mins before the earliest he was likely to wake.  It worked even though we don't do a set bedtime!!  Pretty cool eh? Although, tbh, I wouldn't really worry about 2 night feeds right now as long as he is getting enough sleep at night.  I have been warned that 6 mths is killer for hunger.  A friend of mine swears that until they are firmly on solids, it is life with a newborn again!!
• Could his wake up time be at all related to his MOTNF?  If it was later do you think he might go longer?  If so, I would try to resettle him at 1am for a few nights and push the feed a bit later.  I dislike doing that because it means zero sleep, but if it will help...
• Doesn't sound like you are rushing in, but we get into problems with rushing in here  , so I thought that I would mention it.
• Do you think that the APOP is starting to interfere with his naps?  When my LO gets in the habit (a couple weeks ago I had a week of extending every nap) of 35 min naps that I need to extend, I can see him on the monitor actually looking back for me to come in  
• Have you 'observed' a nap lately. Again, no fun, but it could help you determine what is waking him and exactly when (e.g., a jolt, a dream, eyes pop open, etc).
• I really, REALLY, do think that we need to expect some variability right now. Our LOs are transitioning to fewer naps during the day, and in a terrible stage of needing, yet not needing the CN. I doubt that we will see improvement until they are solidly on 2 naps.  I hope that doesn't sound too pessimistic I keep reminding myself that he has a mind of his own, and is not necessarily going to do what I think is best for him. I have a feeling that I will be repeating that mantra for years to come  
• Can he move or sit yet? I remember someone saying that LOs tend to increase A more rapidly until they can move around.
• I would be hesitant to move to set naps yet because we are in this transition phase, and I think that flexibility might do us well. But, if you think an overhaul is needed, should we discuss set A times? I think that we could have success with that strategy, and it could have a similar effect on his body clock as set naps
• Just to confuse you further, we are definitely getting UT crying here   I have had to up his A before bed to 1:40/5 (plus the ~15 mins it takes him to get to sleep), so we are looking at about 2hrs after the CN.  Our days is getting too long  

Okay, I will keep thinking!!  And just a reminder, from an outsiders perspective (totally different, I know!), things do seem to be looking up. Hopefully all will become more consistent soon. Oh, one last thought - do you do a daily total of his (1) day sleep, (2) night sleep, and (3) total sleep. I did this and it was quite interesting.

Hoping your having a better day!

[Mjaz]

You guys will appreciate my approach for nap 2.  Put him in the crib at 2 hours and see when he falls alseep.  Ha ha.  It was 25 minutes later.  He literally was tossing around, playing, blowing raspberries and then all of a sudden he just put his head down and fell asleep.  I had to hide to watch this all, of course. 

Wow, C_Mother - AWESOME post   Yay - thanks.

My thought in the early bedtime and no CN was - he woke at 4pm from the CN.  So I didn't really see how to get a short CN in...and I was hoping an early bedtime would give us a longer night and help him catch up on sleep.  When we had this 5:30 EW for 5 weeks running - it didn't matter AT ALL what time we put him to bed - he would ALWAYS wake at 5:15-5:45.  So I didn't want to put him down at 7 and then have a 5:30 wake - b/c his wakes are hard to APOP at that time and I feel like it sort of messes up the start of our day (vs. him waking at 5:30 after a solid 11.5 hours of sleep) and it eliminates having to APOP him every morning (I'm afraid of habits forming!)  Does that make sense?  You see it differently?

- Interesting to think what daylight savings will do.  I would put him to bed at 8 if I could EVER get there.

- I did try to extend the 35 min nap his morning - but shh/patting him was just a waste of time - he was just trying to play with me.  So DH APOP'd an additional hour, but it took nearly 10 minutes to get him back.  He seemed UT, but like you, I never know what the 35 min nap means. 

- I was aiming for a 2:40 nap this morning and he fell asleep too quickly.  I will aim for the same tomorrow morning. 

-I love the short am nap/long pm nap idea if I could figure out that A times to make that happen.  I was hoping for a one hour/1:15 nap this morning.  I had decided with DH that we were just going to get him up after that and try to figure out the second A.  I work during his second nap - so the sitter and MIL are in charge of that nap.  Generally they ask what A time I want, but sometimes (esp. MIL!) they put him down when he appears tired.  I generally come home to a baby who has slept 30-35 minutes :/ 

-How do I get past being so afraid of W2S?  I just imagine him waking and screaming and being hard to get back down!?
Interesting about it being a time of increased hunger.  DEFINITELY seeing that! 

-Yes, the wake up time is DEFINITELY related to his MOTNF.  If he wakes to eat around 12/1 - I know I will be up at 4/5am.  If he wakes at 3/4, he goes back till 6/7.  I have tried to extend that NW (esp when it was the only one we had) and he ends up screaming and then is REALLY awake - and we end up feeding him anyway to stop the screaming! I wondered what would happen if I woke him at 3/4 and fed him again - if he'd go back and sleep later?  I was wondering what would happen if I did that for several nights - would it get the EW out of his system?  What do you think?  I know it sounds crraazzy.

-I try not to rush in and try even harder to pin down DH who likes running in b/c he says that E hardly ever settles himself during the day and that it's easier to get him back down if you catch him before he wakes fully.  It's true, but I still try to make him wait.

-I REALLY worry about APOP affecting his naps and him getting used to it!  I try to listen to Wendy, though, and Wendy told me not to worry about it  

-I have no problem watching a nap.  I will watch tomorrow morning's, since he is already down for nap #2 today.

-Interesting idea about set A times - sort of a similar approach.  I know, I don't want to give up on BW approach as I (used to) love the flexibility when it was easy and Elijah fell right back into his routine.  I feel like set naps is the last ditch attempt and I feel like I'm there.  But then I read these posts and I have hope again I just can't imagine the OT set naps would create for Elijah.  Kate is braver than I am...

-Yeah, I wonder about that EW at 8/9pm being UT - we having been doing a bedtime of about 2 hours past the CN and he doesn't really seem too tired!  I wonder if that's why he's fighting bedtime, too.  Or, he's just super hungry!

-I did look at sleep totals.  The days that produced good nights were almost exactly 3:30 of napping, 12 hours at night and 8:30 of A.  But, as my DH pointed out, we've had that exact thing other days and it hasn't worked :/  He's ready to throw our EASY log through the window (or maybe at me)

Thank you, thank you!  More to think about!  Let me know what you think when you have a chance to read my response. 

[Tweakster]

HI there Melinda, just wanted to say what a great post from c_mother lots to consider in there :-)  I like the ideas of going back to basics like watching his naps and just kind of checking his 24 hour sleep totals. 

I think when I was saying about the APOP I kind of meant with the EW - with naps we want to do as much shush/pat or non-APOP things as possible to extend.  But we also don't want OT babies.  So it's kind of finding the balance.  With APOP in the early wakings, it's really a survival tactic until we can get Elijah on to something a bit more consistent with his bedtime and waking.  Which is why I was suggesting the set naps and set bedtime.  It helps with their body clock and you know exactly what you are doing for the day.

But also as c_mother has mentioned there will be variability even with the set naps and bedtime.  Because there are so many things out of our control like when we go out for the day, or someone else has to manage the nap while you are at work, or just developmental things like motor skills or teething...it's always going to throw a spanner in the works.

The only issue I see with a short AM nap at this age is that he won't manage a full A time afterwards.  So that will set you up for a shorter day again.  If he's only going to do a 1 hour nap then you would need to push his morning out, which is kind of part of the issue already isn't it?

Melinda you are really doing great and all you can at this point, I hope you are not being too hard on yourself :-)  It's great that DH is on board and sharing in this so hand over the reigns as much as you can and get some 'me' time ok? :-)

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Wow, C_mother - great post! 

Melinda, I think it's good you let him sort himself out for nap #2.  I'll be interested to hear how long it ends up being. 

I think you were right on yesterday with no CN.  I would've done the same.  And I think C_Mother has a good point that the CN and all the transitions happening at 6 mo are likely largely to blame here.  As much trouble as I've been having with Austin these past couple of weeks, things really are way better and so much more stable than a month ago when I was dealing with dropping the CN and all the fun that goes with it.  I know that's not the most helpful thing, but there is an element of needing to come out the other side of the transition.

I'm with Wendy that I would be nervous about a short AM nap at this age, especially since it's the morning sleep they're usually have better organized at this point so it often ends up being the best nap.  (I know that sounds nuts to you right now, though!)

W2S sounds totally crazy, but it does work for a lot of people.  We used it a little with short naps and it worked ok.  Didn't really solve our issues but didn't result in waking and screaming, actually.  You'll be surprised.  Have you tried HTTJ?  Not to throw more ideas at you, but when short naps were really bad for us I spent almost 2 weeks in his room for naps between 20 min and 60 min.  Everytime he started to stir, before he woke up, I'd put my hand on him.  That, I think, is what really did it in the end.

Have you thought about dropping the MOTNF?  We went from 2-1 (and now I'm thinking about dropping that one as well) MOTNF when he started waking earlier and earlier to eat and, as you said, it was screwing up his wake time.  The first night we were up for 3h since he just didn't know how to fall asleep without eating in the MOTN.  But the next night it was 45 min and then the next night it was 20 and then we had a good stretch of nights until lately.    Just another thought.

Wendy is right, you are doing such a good job.  I hope you're feeling better about things today.  You sound better.    We're all here to help as much as we can!  We know what it feels like to be where you are. 

Talk soon.

[Mjaz]

Thanks, ladies.  I will watch the morning nap tomorrow and shoot for an A of 2:40.  I am also going to just go with whatever he gives me - if I can't extend it in his crib, I'm getting him up.  I can't spend my days APOPing - not good for either of us. 

Nap #2 was one hour on the dot.  My favorites today:  35 and 1 hr - don't know what either of them mean - but they both seemed UT to me...

Kate, how I would love to drop any of the MOTNFs!  We were just starting to talk about that, b/c he only had one and we were anxious to get him STTN. HA.  Now that we have 2-3 NWs and they're all over the place, I feel like trying to tackle that at this point is too much.  Like - I feel I need to choose one thing to focus on and get us on a better track before I start anything else.  I think if his day sleep is sorted out, we'll get back to the one NW and maybe even a later wake. 

Thanks for your kind words and your support.  Matt has been on duty all day.  I am locked in my office with the wood stove burning

M.

[C_mother]

There is just so much to consider, isn't there?

Good point about the length of the day with a short AM nap. Argh. We just cannot win at 6 mths!!! The day is either far too long or far too short without a CN.  I cannot, CANNOT wait to get rid of it.

TBH, I am really not the person to be giving advice, esp. because my LO is younger and I have never tried set naps  I guess my hesitation is just that he is 6.5 mths and soon will be off the CN, so I think that by the time you set his clock you will be changing everything again to get rid of the CN.  I think that set naps would work so much better if he was definitely on 2 naps.  But, as you say, it is worth a try when things seem so tough.  And, your LO is an ANGEL, so he may take to set naps quite easily.

Interesting to think what daylight savings will do.  I would put him to bed at 8 if I could EVER get there.

Just think, in two weeks, you will be at 7:30 easily. YAY!  An EW will be around 6 - phewf.

Yes, the wake up time is DEFINITELY related to his MOTNF.  If he wakes to eat around 12/1 - I know I will be up at 4/5am.  If he wakes at 3/4, he goes back till 6/7.  I have tried to extend that NW (esp when it was the only one we had) and he ends up screaming and then is REALLY awake - and we end up feeding him anyway to stop the screaming! I wondered what would happen if I woke him at 3/4 and fed him again - if he'd go back and sleep later?  I was wondering what would happen if I did that for several nights - would it get the EW out of his system?  What do you think?  I know it sounds crraazzy.

hmm...I have no idea if that would work??  How long did he scream?  Have you ever put him back to sleep without feeding at night?  I never feed when DS wakes due to OT, and sometimes he screams for a few mins while I settle him. It is almost like switch goes off and he stops, settles, and starts to go back to sleep. I stay until he is in a deep sleep to make sure. Now if he wakes at night and isn't hungry, he settles almost immediately when I put my hands on him.

I try not to rush in and try even harder to pin down DH who likes running in  b/c he says that E hardly ever settles himself during the day and that it's easier to get him back down if you catch him before he wakes fully.  It's true, but I still try to make him wait.

Same problem here   Naps are just so darn hard, aren't they?  What ever happened to Y time?

I did look at sleep totals.  The days that produced good nights were almost exactly 3:30 of napping, 12 hours at night and 8:30 of A.  But, as my DH pointed out, we've had that exact thing other days and it hasn't worked :/  He's ready to throw our EASY log through the window  (or maybe at me)

I think that this is good to know.  I would continue to strive for it.  I think that because we are all sooooo routine driven, we tend to expect the days to be similar. But, I think that it is probably very normal that there would be variation even when he has a 'perfect' day  

Kate:

Have you thought about dropping the MOTNF?  We went from 2-1 (and now I'm thinking about dropping that one as well) MOTNF when he started waking earlier and earlier to eat and, as you said, it was screwing up his wake time.  The first night we were up for 3h since he just didn't know how to fall asleep without eating in the MOTN.  But the next night it was 45 min and then the next night it was 20 and then we had a good stretch of nights until lately.    Just another thought.

I know a few people who had to get rid of all night feeds before they could get some sleep    Their babies just loved snuggling with mum in the middle of the night --- so sweet when you think of it.

To all:
Most of my (non-BW) friends swear by putting their LOs down at 9pm to fix EWs. They say that they do 9-7 until the phase ends and then bring bedtime earlier.  I would be worried about OT, but something to think about...

Agreed - you are doing an outstanding job!!  He is lucky that someone is spending this much time thinking about his well-being.

[Mjaz]

I would certainly be worried about major OT putting him to bed at 9pm.  Wow. I know someone who tells everyone her LO STTN - when I asked her the hours she said "11pm to 7am."  OHHHH KKKKKK.

C_mother - you are giving GREAT advice!  I agree with you about set naps - I'm really hesitant to do them b/c of the OT and b/c of all these changes he's going through.  This seems to be such a hard time for him - I don't want to make it worse in any way.  Btw, I'm not so sure he's an angel anymore.  Is there a devil option?  JK.

Based on all the glorious advice, I think this is my plan.  Please let me know if you see something you would not do!  I *am* sleep deprived.

Tomorrow: first A time: 2:40, watch nap, try to extend, no APOPing
This week: if early NW, try not to feed
                 if wakes earlier than 11 hours night sleep, APOP EW
                 continue trying to get E at least 11 hours night sleep and 3.5 hours day sleep
                 if EW and it's been 11 hours, stick with early bedtime

Thank you all!!  Kate, so curious to hear about you set nap day!
 

[Love, laughter, & PJs]

Sounds like a great plan, Melinda.    Let us know how things go.  Fingers crossed for all 3 of you to have a better night!  

Glad you're snuggled up to the wood stove and Matt is holding down the fort!  That definitely sounds nice.  If only my DH would come home from his ski trip and help me out!  

Oh well, had the above all written out and then a friend came over before I posted it!  So I'll add to it....

More great thoughts from C_Mother.  At least you have a lot to think about - all hope is not lost!!  

Set naps worked fine over here today. I woke him from the first one at 1:45, then 3h A time, and then he woke on his own from the second after 1:30 at 3:10.  He was his happy, bubbly self other than from 8-9am before the first nap.  I just put him down and he sounds like he should be out by 6:15.  I was debating about doing a 'set' bedtime at 6:30 but I'm worried about OT buildup so I went for an earlier one.  We'll see.  Going to try the same routine tomorrow and will keep you posted on how it goes.  Hoping after a few days it'll break the EWs!  Although it seems that all I need is for DH to say he'll take him in the morning and he'll sleep - lol!!!

How was the rest of your day, Melinda?

Oh, now just saw your post! I think that sounds like a very reasonable plan for the week.  I think not APOPing the naps will be good both for not forming habits for him and for your sanity.    I found when I just accepted short naps for a while it made me much more able to take a deep breath and regroup about all this, iykwim?  Funny, I think Austin is an angel too - except when it comes to sleep!!

BTW - I try desperately not to listen to anyone about their LOs STTN.  I know those perfect babies are out there but most people either do CIO or don't really mean through the night or other such nonsense.  People like to tell other people their LO STTN, I think.