Not sure where to begin... we just need help *long*

[koe2moe]

I deliberately didn't post here earlier because DS has been ill since Dec when we started daycare.  I understand that sleep training is not good when LOs are not well.  But here I am...

DS is just recovering from a stomach bug, I think.  Monday, vomitting and diarrhea.  (Whoops I typed V/A in other posts!! I'm too tired).  Tue with BRAT diet, no more V/D which means no milk/formula for the first time in his life (previously when he had diarrhea, he didn't have problems with V too much and I put him on BR and formula).  Last 2 nights, we coslept and we made it through the night with only water and it was tough.  For the longest time since 8.5mo DS was waking for bottles and he was genuinely hungry downing 200 or 300ml.  And then with illnesses, it's just all over the place.

Anyway... tonight he's well enough to fight sitting on our lap in the evening even though he was tired and falling over while walking.  So we followed our usual bedtime routine to give him a bath, reading books and skipped the night bottle.  I think he was expecting it although last 2 nights he didn't have it either.  He was crying when we put him down.  On and off he was crying but I think it's mantra because he started and stopped.  Then he was quite for 5 mins and started all over again.  I WI/WO once and told him it's night time and good night.  Then he cried for a few more minutes on and off and then totally quiet. 

I know DS is still not well yet because he's very weak and it's not the time to sleep train but I am not well and I can't just lay there in the dark for day and night as I get massive headache. 

What would you do?  What do you suggest me do?  Mon night he woke throughout the night with hunger and we only gave him water.  Last night he woke only once with screaming mantra cries and went back to sleep (pushed away water sippy).  NW @ 5:30 and drank like 100ml water and went back to sleep very quiet. 

I just don't know where to go from now on.  DH and I almost decided not to bother with sleep training because this being sick can continue for a while.  And sleep training is probably more stressful for us than for DS.  I'm at my wit's end.  Thanks for reading...

[*Becky*]

Hugs hun - thats sounds very tough.
I would not advise sleep training if you think DS is still ill. Can I just ask...are you co-sleeping all the time? You mention having headaches from lying in the dark - when is this?
Also - how did you settle lo before he was ill? Did he sleep independently?
bx

[koe2moe]

Thanks for your quick reply.  My head was a mess and so I realise it's not a clear post.

We have been co-sleeping for naps and since then DS could sleep for 2h and 1 nap only since he's 12 mos.  (He only takes 1 nap at daycare).  He needs the room completely dark so I can't even read or do anything and because of the little sounds he makes, i usually can't sleep no matter how sleepy i was.  I probably only need to be there to get DS to fall asleep but our bed isn't against the wall and I really worry when DS rolls around to settle himself, he would fall off our bed and that's why I try to stay with him unless I know he's deep asleep.

When he wakes in the night because of illness, we would bring him to bed, give him a bottle (because he's genuinely hungry) and just keep him in our bed.  We won't bring him to our bed if it's before midnight.  He had one week STTN in Jan when he was fully recovered but since then he hasn't had more than 5 days without illness and that's why DH and I were almost giving up on the idea of sleep training.  Sleeping in our bed just gives DH and I some rest, no matter how short.  Monday was the first time DS didn't sleep in his bed at all.

I guess it also brings on a question which I forgot to write.

When do you wean the night bottle?  It will be bad for his teeth and he's a really hungry boy since birth.  Dh and I are taking this opportunity to stop feeding DS in the night and will persevere with that even when DS is ill.  With previous illnesses, we continued with formula because we didn't think it was directly related to the diarrhea and DS wasn't really vomitting (once or twice for each illness only).  tomorrow is April already and for the past 4 months, DS has only had 1 week fully well and us less than that... 

Or course, if co sleeping is a way as an interim, we really don't have a problem but we worry about long bad habits and perhaps it's not fair to DS.  Sorry for the long post  again.

[*Becky*]

Firstly that is a lot of illness you have had to cope with so big hugs. Has it been a mixture of things or mainly V and D? I guess you have taken him to the doctor but I would get him checked out. I know that kids do get ill at nursery but best to check it out if it is ongoing.
I think you are right about the bottles. If he has V and D then they will probably not be good for him anyway and at this age it is just going to cause lots of problems with daytime eating. Whilst he is ill I would still offer water but even that needs to be dealt with once he is not ill. If you are in a hot country or it is a hot summer then a sippy in his cot would be fine but he does not NEED to be drinking bottles of either water or milk in the night. Having said that whilst he is ill he needs to be kept hydrated so best to make sure he is over the V and D first before you stop the water.
As for sleep training I would suggest waiting until he is well. Once he is then I would try either GW or WIWO whichever you think would suit him and you best. If you have been with him for every nap and night sleep then GW may be best but if he slept independently before all this illness then maybe WIWO would be better. Have a look at the pages and see which you prefer. I do WIWO with my lo as if he is not ill he will not sleep with me in the room but GW is more gentle and very useful for lo's who either get very upset with WIWO or who have never really managed to sleep independently.

Does he go to sleep at night by himself? Is it just naps you lie with him?

Becky x

[koe2moe]

He goes to sleep himself after his bottle.  And he wakes usually because of the illness, like high fever, diarrhea (he has had 4 weeks of diarrhea followed by double ear infection 3 weeks ago and he was still recovering from it and then he got V/D).  We haven't been to the doc this time yet because docs won't do anything as he's obviously getting better.  No fever, V/D today at all.  Just tired and he's drinking and eating. 
I just had a quick read on the bottle feeding FAQ's and an excerpt from Tracy says the night (i meant the bedtime) bottle is fine up to 2yrs.  I think the problem tonight was that we didn't give DS the usual bedtime bottle and weren't cosleeping with him.  His bedtime routine is throw off.  But I didn't give him the formula because of V/D.  He hasn't had V/D and any BM actually for 2 full days, so would you think it's ok to give him formula/cow's milk again tomorrow provided that there is no V/D tonight?

[*Becky*]

Yes I would think so and yes a bedtime bottle is fine up to two years but not night bottles.
Sounds like he is on the right track....just have a think about how you want to tackle the co-sleeping (if you do) and the nap situation. If he can go to sleep fine at night then maybe WIWO would be the best method.
bx

[koe2moe]

Thanks again, Becky!   
From past experience, DS is very easy to be moved back to his cot.  He did have one week STTN 12 hrs in Jan.  I need to discuss with DH about it.  WI/WO works well for DS but it just wakes me up completely and I have problems going back to sleep.  AND for the next time when DS is ill, we still have to deal with no bedtime bottle...  perhaps it's best to just wean it off.   Would you give night bottles when DS is ill again and couldn't eat during the day?  When would be a time we have to worry about rotting teeth from bedtime bottle?

[londonmama]

Hi koe2moe, I am rushing off to bed now so will only reply quickly, but sorry you have had such a hard time and sorry your DS has been so poorly (and you so poorly too!).

One thing from the start is that if you and your DH and DS are happy co-sleeping, you don't HAVE to change it.  There are always ways to encourage DS back into his cot at whatever age and time you think is right.

I would, though, ditch the middle of the night bottles.  He doesn't need them and it isn't going to help with his eating during the day.  I have found that when my DS is ill he just isn't hungry generally, so offering water overnight is probably enough until he is feeling better.

The bedtime bottle I don't think is a problem for a while longer!  I hope not anyway because I still do it (well, bedtime BF but same thing).  I can't really see the rotting teeth being a problem from just having a bottle at bedtime because it's not like even if you tried to brush his teeth after the bottle that you would really actually get to clean anything (my DS just eats the toothpaste straight off and asks for more!).  I think the main problem for rotting teeth is letting them sleep with a bottle of milk or juice because they might fall asleep sucking constantly with the liquid just sitting on there.

You have a lot to deal with right now.  If it were me, I would probably try to tackle getting him to nap in his cot so that you can have a break in the day.  And tackle no more bottles in the middle of the night by doing gradual withdrawal or WIWO.  And maybe try to settle him in his cot at bedtime, after his bedtime bottle.  Then if you want to co-sleep from when he first wakes in the night, or whatever, in order to get all of you the most rest possible, then you could do something like that.

Hope he is feeling a bit better soon.

[jess, lukeys_mom]

hugs hon - just wanted to pop on this thread. i need to go to bed so will come back later. hopelijk, slaap lekker xxx

[Tweakster]

You have a lot to deal with right now.  If it were me, I would probably try to tackle getting him to nap in his cot so that you can have a break in the day.  And tackle no more bottles in the middle of the night by doing gradual withdrawal or WIWO.  And maybe try to settle him in his cot at bedtime, after his bedtime bottle.  Then if you want to co-sleep from when he first wakes in the night, or whatever, in order to get all of you the most rest possible, then you could do something like that.

This is exactly where we are at, good advice.  I was totally going to post a very similar post to your original post Koe but I already knew the answers these fine ladies would give.  Bless them.

We don't co-sleep because Finn won't settle in our bed (not for lack of trying I tell you!) but it's getting to the point with so many NW since the start of daycare that I will either set up a bed in his room or set up his pack n play in ours so we can get sleep.  Now that I am back to work the sleep is really necessary - and it's more important to me that we all get sleep than sleep training just now when he's going through 'something' and adjusting to daycare.

Big hugs!  Finn has just developed a cough and I have a sore throat so we are on to illness #2...it sucks.

Hang in there ok!

[*Becky*]

How was last night? I totally agree about the co-sleeping btw. I also agree that ditching the night bottles and getting him to nap independently are the first steps x

[koe2moe]

Just a quick reply:  last night went like this... first wake @ 23:00 and we brought him to bed and offered water, he pushed away and settled.  It could just be some discomfort or teething which woke him and he needed to cry to settle himself.  He settled himself quickly in our bed with a bit of rolling around and bumping our heads REAL HARD and then he slept through till 6:52.  That wasn't bad and we gave him a bottle because he was clear of V/D for 2 days. 

Thanks for the hugs and the other advice which was very reassuring.  More soon as I have to hold DS constantly and no daycare today, of coz and 14:40 appointment to the doc to get all the fungal infection, ears, etc checked out just to be sure...

more later...

[koe2moe]

would you sort the naps out when DS's well again?  ie, that's part of sleep training, right?  I'm not too pessimistic, though I am in general, but for DS to be totally well, it's almost impossible   The night bottles we have ditched, thanks to the V/D and BRAT diet tips I got here on BW forum.  I wouldn't reintroduce again no matter what.  Bedtime bottle will be back tonight, so that DS can sleep independently at least for the first part of the night. 

[koe2moe]

Update:  back from the doc and DS has ear infection again.  So he would have some pain.  I gave DS his usual bottle with formula/milk and he had a huge loose BM.  The doc was little concerned if he might have constipation also but no worries now.  He advised us to give some pain killer especially for sleeping when DS has to lie down.

Questions still stand:  would you sort the naps out only after DS is well? 

Londonmama:  we had the longest posts about NW and EW and now here we are again.  Thanks for your words of reassurance.  DH and I thought the same.  We actually spent many nights on mattress (I really) next to DS' cot and then when we didn't need to lay there anymore, he woke up diarrhea or fever and it started all over again.  When DS had the double ear infection, the pain was just so much that he couldn't settle at all in his cot.  It just breaks my heart to see DS whining and fussing when he's normally an easy kid. 

Wendy, I guess it's good that we can comfort DS.  We decided not to give bedtime bottle tonight because of the massive up to the belly button BM in case we get the midnight mess again.  We have a mattress standby for the NW and always prepared to lay it down.   

How did you handle without bedtime bottle? 

[*Becky*]

If it was me I would not try any sleep training until he is well - it will be harder on both of you!
Sorry to hear about the ear infection - poor DS and poor you!
BTW I have to say I love your avatar - what a cutie