2-1 Transition

[babybarr]

I would say the nap is too long or your haven't enough A time before bed.  So I guess the choice is yours!

How old is he now?

[delancepants]

He's only 16months. 

Last week I tried limiting the nap to 2 or 2 and a quarter hours because once he's had 2 hours he wakes up happy (as opposed to crying when it's under 2 hours) but he still took around 30-45mins to go to sleep and ended up with roughly the same A time in the afternoon (usually around 4h30).  After 3 days even though he seemed happy when awake he was obviously completely OT all day and everything fell apart for a couple of days, disturbed sleep at night and short naps.  So I don't really know where to go from here!

[becky1969]

Hey! Sorry to butt in!

I think you have a little dude who really likes/needs his daytime sleep.  You say that he goes to bed at 7:30 and falls asleep anywhere from 7:40-8:45.  Obvously, 7:40 is great! Taking up to 30 minutes to go to sleep is normal for some toddlers.  My son before age 1 was one of those kids who just instantly fell asleep.  From 1-3, he needed to 'chat' to himself for awhile first.  After age 4 (when we started skipping naps frequently) he became an instant guy again! In other words, he may be changing how much wind down time he needs before sleeping. 

The way to know if the length of time it takes to fall asleep is a problem is mornings.  If he's having 10-10.5 hour nights, then it's a problem: the wind down is causing him to be OT by the time he's fully asleep.  If you're getting 11 or more nights, then he's OK and I'd just let him chat/play/grumble in his bed before sleep and wouldn't change a thing.

If your nights are short, then you either need to move bedtime a bit later or really really make sure he's not already OT at bedtime now (at the current time).  Since he's such a strong daytime sleeper, believe it or not he may want a super short A time before bed -- like 4 hours.  My son was definitely that way.  We was a 2.5-3 hour daytime sleeper at a certain point, and we couldn't do any more than 4 hours post nap or he'd do 10 hour nights!  I got *lots* of advice to cut his nap, but I kind of knew that wasn't where he wanted to go.  So we did an earlier bedtime (even tho he could handle 5-6 hours pre-nap), and voila! Fixed!


So, to me it looks like

a) Decide if his long nighttime falling asleep period is *really* a problem by looking at how long he's sleeping.

b) If it's a problem, experiment with an earlier bedtime and then a later one.  I'd probably change by 30 minutes earlier for 3 days, then 30 minutes later for 3 days.

That's what I'd do! In my experience, these strong daytime sleepers are that way cuz they get super overwhelmed by their day.  If he's got any touchy characteristics, that may explain why.

[delancepants]

Thank you for spelling out such a clear plan Becky, it's just what I needed.  He's really a very textbook baby but he's always needed that long morning, short afternoon/evening routine.  He's mostly sleeping 10-10.5hours at night so I think you're probably right.  The thing that's really been bugging me is that he no longer seems able to catch up on lost daytime sleep when I put him down early.  I think this may be a sign that I'm not putting him down early enough.  Ok, I'm going to bite the bullet and start the new plan tomorrow.  Thank you!!

[delancepants]

so just to check i've understood correctly...

he's currently averaging pm A 4h30.  you're suggesting first trying 4h for 3 days, but then are you suggesting trying 4h30 or 5h for the next 3 days?

Thanks

[becky1969]

I think I'd do 4h for 3, then 4h45 for 3 then 5 for 3.  You already know 4h30 doesn't work, so we'll just skip that one, and maybe *increase* by 15 min, but *decrease* by 30. 

Increasing to 5 is a LOT for a 16 month old.  That's why I really think 4 is going to work for you.

[delancepants]

Ok cool thanks.  I'm really praying things work out soon, it just seems like everything keeps changing too quick for me to catch up.  His naps have been a bit dodgy the last few days and I'm wondering if his morning A has stretched out again.  It could be OT of course, so let's see what happens the next few days. 

[becky1969]

It's cuz he's on this side of 18 months.  That's a really really REALLY fast changing time.  Plus you throw in those canines that start coming in 16-18 months, and you've got EVERY kind of crazy going on! LOL!

The good news is AFTER 18 months and the canines, things really even out.  Your child gets super comfortable with 1 nap and has more stamina to get thru the 2nd half of the day.  That's what really was our problem: my son just had a devil of a time with the 2nd half of the day, even with a super long nap under his belt.  He just sloooowly grew into his A time.  We were at 4.5 hours post nap from 2 until 4!!!!  It just took him that long to get there!

[delancepants]

That's interesting, good to know things are going to improve!  I actually managed to get a decent nap out of him today which is a relief, one more thing I don't have to worry about.  Now back to the pm A and early mornings!

[delancepants]

I've been trying for 4h pm A for 2 nights now and DS is really struggling to get to sleep, but all the while rubbing eyes and yawning away.  I haven't managed to get him to sleep at 4h because it's taking so long for him to get to sleep.  Do you think it's possible he may need less than 4hA?

[becky1969]

If he's yawning and rubbing his eyes, it might be worth a try.  We know 4.5 doesn't work.  I really doubt 5 will b/c he's just so little still.  Try 3h45 and see what happens.

[delancepants]

Phew!  Things got a bit hairy earlier in the week.  4hrs definitely didn't work and pushed us back to 5.15am wake up - aargh!  I thought I was going to lose it.  Luckily with a little APOP and serendipity, we now seem to be in a nice new routine!  6.15am wake up (hopefully I can shift this later once he's over the OT) and 4h15 pm A taking only 15mins to fall asleep in the evening - hooray!  He's only sleeping about 10h45 at night but the fact that our routine is now fitting into 24hours without slippage makes me think that's probably all he needs.

It got me thinking though...when can I realistically expect to be able to have a set bedtime?  Right now I'd be scared to put him down too early in case he started playing and went to sleep too late.  At what age will I be able to just put him in bed at 7pm regardless of the length of his pm A?

[becky1969]

Glad you found the magic spot! And I'd definitely say a 1045 night sounds like that's where he needs to be.  My guess? That will lengthen out a bit over the next month or two.

The set bedtime -- every mom wants it! LOL! It depends on the kid.  We had a pretty consistent bedtime starting around age 3 or so.  It wasn't 'set' -- it was still based on A times -- but his day was so consistent that the bedtime was basically a set 7:30. 

But when YOUR kid can handle it will vary.  Definitely not as early as 18 months; they're too new to the 1 nap thing and still very susceptible to OTness.  Also, your nap time is going to change sometime around 27-28 months probably, so you won't be able to set a bedtime until after that change happens most likely.

[delancepants]

Thanks Becky.  You're a mine of information!!

[delancepants]

We're managing at the moment.  DS's am A lengthened again and then his molars started coming through before I could figure out his new pm A, he's frequently a bit OT, but I'm managing to prevent it spiralling out of control.

We have a little problem at nap time though I'm wondering if you can help with.  If DS wakes early during his nap either at 35/45 mins or 1h30, he will cry for 5-10 mins and I'm wondering if I can prevent this.  When he wakes early during nap I give him a chance to settle himself but he never does.  He escalates very quickly, working himself up into a frenzy.  I've worked out that if I just get in there quick, he'll settle back down and go to sleep, but only after crying pretty hard for 5-10mins.  I go in, give him a big hug (while he's standing up in the cot), give him his lovey, tell him it's time to go to sleep, do the sign for sleep, and I lie down on the spare bed next to the cot.  Then he cries for his 5-10 mins before going back to sleep.

Here's where we are with sleep training.  In the evenings, we do our 1.5-2hour routine, dinner, potty, bath, stories, change, hugs and then DS puts him into the cot, says goodnight and walks out.  DS does his quiet cry for a minute or two, if necessary DH will say 'ssh' from the corridor, DS stops crying and babbles for 10-15 mins before going to sleep.  At nap time, I do 1-1.5 hour routine, lunch, potty, change, stories, hug and then put him in the cot, give the sign for sleep and I lie down on the spare bed.  He lies down quite happily, babbles for 10mins and goes to sleep.  Then I leave the room.  I haven't got to leaving the room yet as I was trying to do it one step at a time, and I got interrupted by changing routines and teething.  At the beginning of sleep training he did this crying hard before going to sleep thing, and it died down within a few days and was gone completely within a week or so.  But the crying hard when he wakes early thing is persisting.  I thought it would stop too, but now I've realised it's actually been going on for weeks and weeks.  I guess I haven't noticed how long it's been because it only happens a couple of times a week.  Now I've realised I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong.  I'm not sure what I should be doing though.

Thanks, Lia