30min naps advice please!!

[gilly37]

Hi there,

I've never posted here before but I do read often. I have a 16 week old 30min napper!! I would say I've tried everything, ssh pat has never worked for her, tried to httj and as soon as I laid my hands on her she woke up, have tried wake to sleep and it helped her stay asleep for 45 mins once but the next 5 times I tried it didn't make any difference, one of those I had gone in too late and she was already stirring, and the other times she woke as soon as I very lightly brushed her cheek.

She falls asleep with no fuss and usually very quickly unless she's overtired but I just can't get her to stay asleep, I do wonder if she's just a catnapper as I definitely don't think she's able to enter deep sleep during the day. I think I'm getting A times right wherever I can (1hr 45mins, she's 16 weeks) but these short naps make it so difficult. I feel like I'm spending the whole day trying to get her to sleep. She really needs it but just won't do it! Can I post our day yesterday (quite typical) and maybe someone can take a look and see where it's going wrong because I'm getting really disillusioned and thinking of just letting LO take the lead and scrapping the routine altogether.

0700 E 6oz
A 1hr 40m
0840-0910 S  nap in cot (watched this one yesterday, she stirred at 21mins then opened eyes at 30mins, tried ssh pat but she was wide awake so got her up)
A 1hr 10m
1020-1055 S another nap which took a lot of work.
1100 E 7oz
A 1hr 45m
1230 out for walk in pram, slept for 45mins 1245-1330.
A 1hr 50m
1500 E 4oz (fussed during bottle, OT?? Screamed until I took it out and replaced with dummy and fell asleep)
1520-1550 S
1550 E 3oz (the rest of bottle)
A 1hr 45m
1735-1800 S   in bouncy chair while we had dinner, bliss!
1830 E 2oz of bottle then A time (bath, massage)
1910 E Remaining 5oz
1940 S Bed
2245 E 3oz DF. Slept through until 0630.

So what do you think? Should I not complain since I get a baby who sleeps through?? I just feel like it's a lot of work during the day, I mean it's 5 naps every day, I'm tired myself with all the putting her down, trying to get her back to sleep, getting her up, fighting to keep her awake for her bottles, then fighting to get her to sleep again, and so on.... It doesn't flow nicely through EAS cycles, it's actually more like EASASEASAESEASESA!!!!!!!

I'd love some advice.

Thanks, Gxx

[Shiv52]

Hi there

Here's some info:

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652

4 months 1 hour and 45 - 2 hours
5 months 2 hours - 2.25 hours

Firstly thats great about her STTN!  WOW!

It could be she's ready for a touch more A time.  Maybe try 1 hr 50?

I know there is a link on here for short nappers and I can't find it but I'll keep looking. 

How long do you try to settle back to sleep for once your LO wakes early?   

[gilly37]

Hi thanks for replying. I sometimes feel that even trying to keep her awake for 1hr 45 is hard enough especially her first block of A time in the morning so if she's showing all the tired signs I just put her down as I'm terrified of OT!!! This probably messes us up for the rest of the day, but looking at the day I've detailed maybe you're right, I'll try a slightly longer A tomorrow. On the plus side, today she went down for her lunchtime nap bang on 12 and slept until 2.30pm, waking twice 25mins and 1hr 15mins into the nap, but I managed to get her back to sleep with sshh pat of all things, both times, and it took 10-20mins for her to fall asleep again but this was a major breakthrough for me. This set us up for the rest of the day today and she's now floating off to sleep happily and not OT yay!

Anyway in answer to your question, I try getting her back to sleep for about 10mins initially and if I think she's looking likely to fall asleep again I'll try for as long as it takes, but more often than not she wakes and the eyes are wide open, and in this case I know it's a lost cause and I get her up and watch for more tired signs (could be 10mins later or as much as 1hr 30, no pattern to it), which is why she ends up having 2 naps in between each feed. In the case that she doesn't go back to sleep I'd like to know what I'm meant to do with her A time after, do I reduce it and hope that her next nap is longer?? And if it's not then I'm left in the same situation for the next A time having to reduce it again?

Thanks and sorry for all the questions!

Gxx

[Shiv52]

Some LOs prefer a shorter A time in the morning.  Maybe leave it at 1hr 40/45 for her first A time and work on extending the rest of the A times later on in the day first? 

Thats great news on the extending today.  Good for you!  I always extended with ssh-pat and 20 minutes was my limit (for my sanity's sake!). 

And yes if she has a short nap, reduce the next A time and watch for sleepy signs and get her down as soon as you think she's ready for a sleep and fingers crossed you get a longer nap to get you back on track!

Is she wakening for her dummy do you think?  I had luck extending naps by going in around the time she would waken (but before she woke!) and replace the dummy (as it had always fallen out) so when she did stir the sucking got her right back over?  And then she started extending on her own once she was used to the longer nap and the dummy wasn't an issue!

[gilly37]

Hmmm well I don't think she necessarily is waking for her dummy (as she sleeps through all night and sometimes doesn't wake us up for anything) but putting it back in does sometimes help her to get back to sleep if she has woken. I might try going in just before the 30mins and putting the dummy back in. Today hasn't been so good nap-wise, I always find everything goes to pot at the weekend when my partner's off work, because I get a lie-in while he gets up with LO but doesn't follow the routine at all, brings her into bed for her nap which is right after the bottle because he's gotten up with her and played for an hour before actually feeding her!!! Grrrr!

Just to be clear then, if she takes a 30min nap how long should her next A time be? Is it just until I start to see tired signs?

Thanks again,

Gxx

[Shiv52]

I'd say an hour but I'd watch for tired signs and put down earlier/slightly later as appropriate.

GGRRR to partners at the weekend!  Mine used to be the same but I got so fed up starting from scratch every single Monday to finally have things ok by Wed or Thurs for it to be messed up again on Saturday (I got a lie in too as I dealt with NWs!).  In the end I just wrote it down (feed at x, wind down at x, in bed for nap at x!!)  and asked could he follow it for a few weeks to see if it made a difference to our 45 minute naps.  Made a big difference here.

I would try to see if the dummy helps to extend just to see does it help you get a few longer naps!

[gilly37]

I did actually write everything down for OH a couple of weeks ago and he just laughed at my little piece of paper and did his own thing anyway! Says we can't have our lives dictated by a routine!!! Anyway after yesterday I told him I was serious about it, Alexa needs to nap better for her benefit and our benefit too, so this morning he got up with her at 6.15, fed her at 6.30, played with her until 7.50, brought her back into our room and chilled out with her for a bit then popped her down in her cot at 8am and she was asleep by 8.02! Something must have sunk in for him I guess! She woke at 8.35 and after the other day's success with shh pat I decided to keep at it, it didn't go brilliantly initially, taking 23mins for her to fall asleep for 12 mins only! But I tried again and it took 20mins this time but she did go back over. Think I need some encouragement to keep at it, was almost going insane in there this morning. Does it get any easier??

Gxx

[Shiv52]

It does get easier I promise.  Stick at it consistently for a week and you should see good results.  The key is being consistent for this next few days to get your LO into a routine with the longer A times.

Are you sticking to 1 hr 50? 

And well done to DH!!! That is great news!  Make sure you let him know how grateful you are so he keeps it up (Men are like LOs like that...need a bit of positive reinforcement! With mine his fav chocolate bar works great!)

Let us know how today goes.  You're doing great xx

[gilly37]

1hr 50 was the A time this morning but she still woke at 30mins, she did go back down for a further 45mins after 23mins of shh pat but I couldn't get her over again after that so I guess you would count that as a short nap? This is my dilemma every day, do I count both the 30mins and the 45mins as the total for 1 short-ish nap? Or is it technically 2 short short naps? She was yawning her little head off and rubbing her eyes at 1hr 30 after that nap so I just went with it in case she got overtired. So she went to sleep at 1hr 40 but woke at 28mins very upset..... How did she get OT?? Took 20mins of shh pat to get her back over but she woke crying again 10mins later??? ARGH! She's now off to sleep again but I doubt that she'll last long. Not going so well now! Surely it's not good for her to be sleeping in such short bursts? Anyway I'll keep you posted on how this next 'block' of sleep goes...

Gxx

[gilly37]

Well she's up, after 1 nap of 35mins, then 15mins, then 40mins (1hr 30 in total) which actually took over 2hrs with all the sshing and patting! I'm knackered, I'm actually quite glad that's finally over! Only thing is I'm not sure what to do with the A time now...

Gxx

[Shiv52]

30mins, she did go back down for a further 45mins after 23mins of shh pat but I couldn't get her over again after that so I guess you would count that as a short nap?

I'd count this as a disjointed longer nap.  Don't underestimate how great it is that you managed to extend those naps.  Well done!  It is such hard work.  That second nap was actually pretty good (1.5 hours sleep over 2 hours is actually good IMO!).

How has the rest of the day been?  I would probably just keep at it and see how rest of day plays out.  Remember it takes a few days of being consistent with the extending and A times to know for sure if is or is not going to work.   You're doing fab!  Hope you are relaxing tonight after all that sshing and patting today.

xx

[gilly37]

Thank you so much you've been really helpful with all your advice and support! The rest of the day wasn't so good but I'm not too downbeat about it, I got her ready a little while after her feed and we went a walk to my mum's (45min walk) but she only managed half an hour of sleep in there (obviously can't shh pat while walking!)so by the time we got to my mum's she was pretty tired and my whole family were there wanting to see her so I didn't really get a chance to get her down again for another nap, she snoozed very briefly in her bouncer chair over at my mum's while we all had dinner but it was literally only about 10mins. Got her home and did the bath and bottle, she actually went down really well for the night (better than I expected with the second half of the day going the way it did), maybe the extending this morning and lunchtime really helped her get through the day a bit better.

I had another little question, is it ok if once in a while they stay awake for a bit longer than they should and miss a nap because of it?? I know it'd make things harder for myself and I'd have to mess with A times etc but the only reason I ask is that it's difficult to keep to routines when we have stuff on and we can't stay indoors all the time. She won't sleep at my mum's, or for long periods in her pram, in fact I think she only really sleeps properly in her own cot at home. Car used to work but she's too nosey now, she'll only manage quick 10mins here and there. I know it's good that she'll sleep in her cot at any time but it's a bit difficult to take a cot everywhere lol...

Gxx

[Shiv52]

she actually went down really well for the night (better than I expected with the second half of the day going the way it did), maybe the extending this morning and lunchtime really helped her get through the day a bit better.

Yeah I'd say the extra sleep helped her through! 

is it ok if once in a while they stay awake for a bit longer than they should and miss a nap because of it??

When you are first making changes and extending A times and working on naps, to be fair to you and your LO it is best to try and be as consistent as you can for 5-7 days otherwise you won't know for sure if what you are trying to achieve is working IYSWIM?  I am realistic though and know you have to do things and get out and about but just be aware that if you do too much (some would say anything) while establishing a routine it will take longer to get things into place and you could think its not working. 

Once things are settled, I absolutely think its ok to have a longer A time or a shorter nap etc.  I started a baby signing class when my DD was 4 months old and it was right when she should have been sleeping.  I also went to my Granny's weekly (still do actually!) and she didn't sleep great there but I made it work.  That being said I had a fairly good routine established so it was fairly easy to get back on track and we tended to have a day at home after a day out and about. 

You're LO is still very young.  My DD wasn't great at sleeping anywhere else but as she got older that did improve.  She got much better at napping properly in her buggy which made a big difference as I could go to town or wherever, feed her there and then walk about until she fell asleep at her nap time, cover the buggy with a blanket so it was dark and then meet a friend for lunch and beable to have it in peace.  Or else I'd time it that nap time fell when we were heading home so she'd fall asleep on the way home and I'd transfer her to her cot. 

But anyways first things first...I'd keep working on getting your A time consistently to 1hr 50 and extending naps and see how things go.  The rest will fall into place and it'll be easier to judge when you can skip a nap etc once you have a routine that you are confident with in place.

HTH x

[gilly37]

Oh god today was an absolute disaster! It all started off so well in the morning, she was ready for a sleep 1hr 30 after waking up, managed to extend her first nap but as she still woke early from it I reduced the following A time. That's where it went pear shaped! Everything was messed up, she wouldn't take her feed and fell asleep after 2oz, then we had to go to MIL's and she refused to sleep in the car, or at MIL's, on the way home fell asleep in car for 10mins only then was wide awake. By this time I'd completely lost where we were with A times, feeds, naps. That meant it was just awful trying to get her to sleep tonight, took an hour and lots and lots of screaming and writhing around, I'm sorry to say I resorted to taking her out of the cot and cuddling her to sleep then very gently putting her in the cot sound asleep. Not good! Very discouraged as we'll be back to square one tomorrow... However, OH's back at work tomorrow THANK GOODNESS!!! And I don't really have any errands to run except going to see SIL but that can be any time really. I'll go as soon as LO wakes up from a nap and feed her and we can play with her for a bit then I'll head back home in time for her nap I think. Really must try to be consistent.

I really understand everything you're saying and the theory is great but it's putting it into practice that's proving very difficult for me. Oh well, tomorrow's another day...

Gxx

[Shiv52]

Tomorrow is definately another day.  {{{hugs}}} for the tough day and so glad you got her settled to sleep. 

Really must try to be consistent

Sorry to have to agree but yes, consistency is the key when establishing a routine or rejigging a routine that has lost its way.  I really would give yourself 3/4 days (probably 5-7 is more realistic) to just work on your A times and naps.  I would actually advise you to wait until you know you are going to have the time to do it and until then just follow LOs cues.  If I were you I would make no plans to go anywhere for a week (unless you absolutely have to) and try and give it a good go.  Sleep training is HARD work and can be really disheartening if you don't see results but you don't see results unless you put in the work consistently IYSWIM.  Bit of a catch 22.  Not saying you can't see people but for the sake of a week, get people to come to you and keep you company and see LO in your house.  I remember having people lined up to visit 3/4 days in the week just to keep me company and stop me from going mad with all the settling and ssh-patting it took to teach independent sleep and extend naps to my LO.   The week was hard work but so worth it.  Initially I tried to wing it but in the end I was fed up being right back to square one so just resigned to give it the time it needed. 

HTH xx